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52 reasons to leave the eu!

bub

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So can someone explain me why everywhere the laws are passed with a majority, while when it's about Europe people start calling the very same process "hitlerian", "authoritarian" etc....?



And is it democratic that a country of 500,000 inhabitants can veto a decision approved by 350 millions of people?
 

bub

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Also, a village isnt an ENTIRE NATION.
it's another scale but it's the same principle. In the USA, Arkansas does not have a veto right.


And it's a bit surprising you are the one "defending the right of the small nations to be heard" while two days ago you were furious about your president coming from an "insignificant nonentity"
 

kaya'08

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So can someone explain me why everywhere the laws are passed with a majority, while when it's about Europe people start calling the very same process "hitlerian", "authoritarian" etc....?
Its different in a nation. The same laws dont apply when the person setting the rules arent the peoples government in the first place.



And is it democratic that a country of 500,000 inhabitants can veto a decision approved by 350 millions of people?
How is it democratic that a foriegn power rules over a historically and culturally distinct people and are allowed to eradicate (forget the numbers here) an entire nations voice in favour of the bigger powers and therefore allow smaller nations to succumb to the will of the bigger powers rather than the EU as a whole? Why should only France, UK and Germany be allowed to say what direction the union takes in a 27 nation bloc union. Get real bub!
 

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it's another scale but it's the same principle. In the USA, Arkansas does not have a veto right.
America is a relatively new Republic and was and always will be one peoples: the remnants of the BRITISH colony. Europe are a linguistically, culturally and even ethnically distinct peoples, same rules dont apply. Thats why i support their federation.


And it's a bit surprising you are the one "defending the right of the small nations to be heard" while two days ago you were furious about your president coming from an "insignificant nonentity"
That was Laila not me. And he is not my President.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Its different in a nation. The same laws dont apply when the person setting the rules arent the peoples government in the first place.

How is it democratic that a foriegn power rules over a historically and culturally distinct people .. and therefore allow smaller nations to succumb to the will of the bigger powers rather than the EU as a whole? Why should only France, UK and Germany be allowed to say what direction the union takes in a 27 nation bloc union. Get real bub!
Absolutely! Europe is not a country but a family of nations, nations as diverse and proud as can be.

Politicians in Berlin have different priorities to those in Paris and London. National needs are not interchangeable, a financial example being our humiliating and destructive experience of the ERM.
 

bub

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Its different in a nation. The same laws dont apply when the person setting the rules arent the peoples government in the first place.
The EU institutions are also your government.



How is it democratic that a foriegn power rules over a historically and culturally distinct people and are allowed to eradicate (forget the numbers here) an entire nations voice in favour of the bigger powers and therefore allow smaller nations to succumb to the will of the bigger powers rather than the EU as a whole? Why should only France, UK and Germany be allowed to say what direction the union takes in a 27 nation bloc union. Get real bub!
1) It's not a foreign power, they are elected by us and come from our countries. It's the same as what happens in UK but in another scale: Blair is English and also rules over Scotland or Wales. And UK chose to enter the EU, so it's your own choice.

2) France, UK and Germany can't impose a decision over the small countries. The votes are not totally proportional to the population for this reason. For example, Belgium gets something like 10 votes and Germany 25.
 
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bub

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America is a relatively new Republic and was and always will be one peoples: the remnants of the BRITISH colony. Europe are a linguistically, culturally and even ethnically distinct peoples, same rules dont apply. Thats why i support their federation.

We're distinct, that's why we're gonna be a federation and not a single superstate. Switzerland, Belgium etc...are federations because they have ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity.

That was Laila not me. And he is not my President.
You're British, so he's your president
 

kaya'08

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The EU institutions are also your government.
No they are not our government, they are a form of power who have been expanded beyond what they should be. So, you made the Lisbon treaty when the people rejected the constitution so as to avoid a referendum and take away our soviergn against our will, and mold the EU into an authoritarian, massive centralized government and make out it was accepted by "the people" when in reality the Europeans didnt even WANT your constitution yet you say a federation is what the people of Europe want.


1) It's not a foreign power, they are elected by us and come from our countries. It's the same as what happens in UK but in another scale: Blair is English and also rules over Scotland or Wales.
But all of the treaties that created the Union was put to popular vote, the Lisbon treaty trojan horse exploited a legal loop hole and stopped us from voting. Also, the people we elected to represent us have very little sway in the outcome of the decisions by the EU parliament if the bigger powers vote otherwise.

2) France, UK and Germany can't impose a decision over the small countries. The votes are not totally proportional to the population for this reason. For example, Belgium gets something like 10 votes and Germany 25.
They dont even have veto power so what Germany and France wants, the rest of us get. Its not a European Union, its a German and French union we have been forced to follow; at the expense of the erradication of the voice of the smaller member states. Because of course, they are insignificant.
 
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kaya'08

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We're distinct, that's why we're gonna be a federation and not a single superstate. Switzerland, Belgium etc...are federations because they have ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity.
The reason we are so distinct is why you will never federate us.


You're British, so he's your president
I dont submit myself to his Authotarian leadership, so he is not my President. You can have the ugly bastard :)
 

bub

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No they are not our government
Are you in the EU yes or not?

, they are a form of power who have been expanded beyond what they should be. So, you made the Lisbon treaty when the people rejected the constitution so as to avoid a referendum and take away our soviergn against our will, and mold the EU into an authoritarian, massive centralized government and make out it was accepted by "the people" when in reality the Europeans didnt even WANT your constitution yet you say its what the people of Europe want.
Was the Lisbon treaty ratified yes or not?

But all of the treaties that created the Union was put to popular vote, the Lisbon treaty trojan horse exploited a legal loop hole and stopped us from voting. Also, the people we elected to represent us have very little sway in the outcome of the decisions by the EU parliament if the bigger powers vote otherwise.
Who accepted the treaties? Dictators?


They dont even have veto power so what Germany and France wants, the rest of us get. Its not a European Union, its a German and French union we have been forced to follow; at the expense of the erradication of the voice of the smaller member states. Because of course, they are insignificant.

You should read my posts carefully
 

Republic_Of_Public

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The EU institutions are also your government.

1) It's not a foreign power, they are elected by us and come from our countries. It's the same as what happens in UK but in another scale: Blair is English and also rules over Scotland or Wales.
For most people it doesn't feel like our government because the EU is too big, too distant and far from the grassroots. Further away than Westminster, which is at least in the same realm.

How many people know who their MEPs are? Other than the ones who have Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons, not too many know and few people care. For most people the EU is a whole unnecessary level of government. Why, they say, do we need busybodies in the EC, political losers in their own right like Kinnock or Patten, to make our laws when Westminster and Whitehall would do?
 

bub

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The reason we are so distinct is why you will never federate us.
Explain me how an Italian is so distinct from a German that a federation is impossible, while they (Germans and Italians) have been in a Swiss federation for centuries.


I dont submit myself to his Authotarian leadership, so he is not my President. You can have the ugly bastard :)
I'm affraid you don't have a veto right about Van Rompuy being your president.
 

kaya'08

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Are you in the EU yes or not?
Im in a nation full of Euro Realists if that helps. :)


Was the Lisbon treaty ratified yes or not?
You mean by the people who wanted a referendum on it? No.

Who accepted the treaties? Dictators?
Sort of yes. Politicians who pressed the mute button on their citizens.


You should read my posts carefully
Its irrelevant. If the top powers agree on something, and say Belgium doesnt want it, they cant veto it. So they have no choice. Their country will change and the direction it takes as a result will be at the expense of the EU and the say of FORIEGN POWERS and not what the people want, or its own government even.
 

kaya'08

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Explain me how an Italian is so distinct from a German that a federation is impossible, while they (Germans and Italians) have been in a Swiss federation for centuries.
Firstly, the rejection in Europe of the constitution is evidence that even Europeans dont want this federation.
Secondly, good luck getting Italians to succumb to German/French rule. No historically distinct or culturally distinct people will accept to be ruled by a foriegn power, end of. Never before, not today. ;)


I'm affraid you don't have a veto right about Van Rompuy being your president.
Its ok. Its not a beauty contest, so your President can stay. ;)
 

bub

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For most people it doesn't feel like our government because the EU is too big, too distant and far from the grassroots. Further away than Westminster, which is at least in the same realm.

How many people know who their MEPs are? Other than the ones who have Nick Griffin and Andrew Brons, not too many know and few people care. For most people the EU is a whole unnecessary level of government. Why, they say, do we need busybodies in the EC, political losers in their own right like Kinnock or Patten, to make our laws when Westminster and Whitehall would do?
I'll give you a short example.

You have a factory in France, and a factory in UK. Both produce the same product and pollute as much.

In UK, people are more concerned about pollution and the British government asks the factory to install a filter on the chimney. The factory would have to pay a lot for this filter, and its product would be more expensive, so it chooses to move 30 miles away, on the other side of the Channel.

While if the decision is voted on a larger scale, the French factory would also have to install the same filter and no factory would be closed.
 

bub

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Firstly, the rejection in Europe of the constitution is evidence that even Europeans dont want this federation.
The majority seems to agree, since they elect politicians who agree with the treaties.

Secondly, good luck getting Italians to succumb to German/French rule. No historically distinct or culturally distinct people will accept to be ruled by a foriegn power, end of. Never before, not today. ;)
I don't understand why you talk about "German rule" or "French rule". Germany and France have a fair level of influence in the EU, just as UK or all the other countries. I think that the new voting system under the Lisbon treaty is that a law needs 55% of the votes to pass, and that theses 55% represent at least 65% of the European population.



Its ok. Its not a beauty contest, so your President can stay. ;)
Do you want a japanese poem?
 

bub

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Im in a nation full of Euro Realists if that helps. :)
"Realist" to the point of not even realizing that they're part of the EU?


You mean by the people who wanted a referendum on it? No.
I meant by politicians elected by the Brits, so I guess the answer is yes
Sort of yes. Politicians who pressed the mute button on their citizens.
I've never heard about Brits saying they were not a democracy



Its irrelevant. If the top powers agree on something, and say Belgium doesnt want it, they cant veto it. So they have no choice. Their country will change and the direction it takes as a result will be at the expense of the EU and the say of FORIEGN POWERS and not what the people want, or its own government even.
That's how democracy has always worked, everywhere
 

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The majority seems to agree, since they elect politicians who agree with the treaties.
Rubbish, all the politicians Europe voted wanted the constitution but we didnt agree to that did we? Just like most of the parliamentary representatives wanted the Lisbon Treaty but alot of countries would have voted otherwise in a referendum.

I don't understand why you talk about "German rule" or "French rule". Germany and France have a fair level of influence in the EU, just as UK or all the other countries. I think that the new voting system under the Lisbon treaty is that a law needs 55% of the votes to pass, and that theses 55% represent at least 65% of the European population.
Most of which Germany, France and the UK make up.
 

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"Realist" to the point of not even realizing that they're part of the EU?
No...realist.


I meant by politicians elected by the Brits, so I guess the answer is yes
Funny you should say that, Britons didnt want Lisbon and wanted a referendum. Even the EU countries who wanted Lisbon wanted a referendum. The only people who got a fair say in this whole barbaric process is the Irish.

I've never heard about Brits saying they were not a democracy
We are, whenever it suits the pro-EU elitists in our Parliament.

That's how democracy has always worked, everywhere
Yes in a nation, where native rule is the law. Not foreign rule.
 

bub

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Most of which Germany, France and the UK make up.
France = 65Mo
Germany = 82Mo
UK = 60Mo

that's 200 millions, which is 40% of the EU population.

So even if they agreed on something, they'd still need around 125 millions of people to pass something. That's about 10 or 15 small countries
 

kaya'08

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France = 65Mo
Germany = 82Mo
UK = 60Mo

that's 200 millions, which is 40% of the EU population.

So even if they agreed on something, they'd still need around 125 millions of people to pass something. That's about 10 or 15 small countries
40%!
Thats a very high number bub! Dont forget they have VETO rights too!
 

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that means the same, "everyone is heard" = "consensus" and "80%" = "most of the times"
A consensus is an "agreement", doesnt agree everyone has been heard. 80% is not 100%. Consensus is not unanimous agreement of proposals that may or may not be raised by anyone as oppose to a limited selection.
 

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For most people it doesn't feel like our government because the EU is too big, too distant and far from the grassroots. Further away than Westminster, which is at least in the same realm.
The EU will fix that though, eventually they will remove Westminster in favour of regions. Regions = better than nations.
 

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The majority seems to agree, since they elect politicians who agree with the treaties.
A general problem of democracy is that no matter who you vote for, some policies will just happen no matter what, no matter if the people disagrees with it. Its the problem of voting for parties, as oppose to having a single party state where people vote to accept certain things or not(which is the form democracy is taking in China).
 

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I dont care how unfair it is, i believe Europe should break the dog collar we have tied around our necks for years and unite under a common interest; to become our own power, set our own rules and be our own ruler!

We have never before, as a continent had such a common interest and ideology to this extend! Why not take advantage of that?? We can unite under a European banner which has as much historic significance as anything (look at Rome, Alexander's conquests etc) and become a global power in a world where our foriegn needs and domestic needs and voices are not properly heard!
 
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