5 mistakes Dr. Anthony Fauci made on COVID that spelled disaster

[Mina]

WADR you are way out in left field thinking it more likely occurred naturally and it just coincidentally showed up at a wet market within 1 mile of a lab that specializes in that type of research. You have a better shot at winning the lottery than that turning out to be true.

It turns out it's true. Two studies just came out, each looking into the question from a completely different perspective, and each pointing to the same conclusion: that it crossed over from animals to humans at that market.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Studies find more evidence of Covid’s wildlife origin from Wuhan ‘wet market’

‘Pandemic likely arose from at least two separate infections of humans from animals at the Huanan market,’ scientists say

www.independent.co.uk

This is, of course, hugely frustrating to the Trumpists, since their Dear Leader pushed the "yellow peril" idea that it was a lab leak. But none of the evidence is consistent with that theory. "All eight COVID-19 cases detected prior to 20 December were from the western side of the market, where mammal species were also sold." The only early cases that weren't from people who spent time at those particular stalls were also people who lived or worked near the market. This is an indication that the virus first hit humans among people who worked at the market, "but then started that spread … into the surrounding local community as vendors went into local shops, infected people who worked in those shops."

The other study used a molecular clock approach and found that the first jump of the virus from animals to humans happened around November 18, 2019, with a lineage of the virus found only in people who had a direct connection to the Huanan market. In other words, the oldest version of COVID we have evidence of had only recently become a human virus, and shows up nowhere other than people connected to the market... only after that did the virus branch out into new lineages that infected people more broadly.

None of that is what we'd expect to see if a lab worker inadvertently transported it into the world. Then we'd expect to see that the earliest cases were among lab workers and their close contacts. That is, for example, what was found in Marburg back when the Marburg outbreak occurred in Germany from a lab leak there.

The only way to make this evidence fit with the lab-leak hypothesis is to imagine that the virus had only recently been bred in the lab, and then immediately gave a lab worker an asymptomatic infection, then he headed cross town and happened to infect some people at that market (AND NOBODY ELSE), and then those market workers/customers spread it more widely. We can't disprove that with 100% certainty, but it's wildly unlikely, and is a textbook case for Occam's razor.

I understand that you were very emotionally attached to the lab leak hypothesis, for strictly political reasons. But what you need to ask yourself is whether the facts have any role in your beliefs. Does it matter to you that the evidence is entirely consistent with what we'd expect if it was an animal-to-human transmission from animals being sold at a local market. Does it matter to you that the evidence is entirely inconsistent with what we'd expect to see if it was a bug kept in a lab that was accidentally released? I think that answer is no -- that, since you're a conservative, the facts have absolutely no weight in your decision about which positions you'll adopt. But I hope you prove me wrong.

 

[Good4Nothin]

The immune system targets what it views as foreign. If a cell has foreign proteins, the immune system will see it as foreign and activate accordingly. Its getting tricked onto seeing an active infection to fight. But It doesn't get confused. The rest of your nonsense comes across as conspiracy level bs. It doesn't matter who developed the vaccines first or how quickly. The vaccines still had to undergo clinical trials and human testing before they were approved.

How in the world could you know that? The best vaccine experts don't know that. The immune system is complex and poorly understood.

 

[Gordy327]

How in the world could you know that? The best vaccine experts don't know that. The immune system is complex and poorly understood.

This is basic immunology.

 

[Mina]

How in the world could you know that?

I know it for the same reason that pretty much every expert was confident about urging people to get the vaccine. There were extensive clinical trials around the world. What we'd expect to see, if somehow these vaccines "confused" the immune system is that vaccinated people would be worse at responding to the virus, and rates of serious illness and death from COVID would be higher among the vaccinated. Instead, they're much, much lower..... which is exactly what we'd expect to see if the vaccines were making the body better able to respond appropriately to an invasion by the virus. I know that, for strictly emotional and political reasons, many would like it if the vaccines were bad for people. But the evidence points very strongly the opposite way. So what people need to think through is whether they'll allow the evidence to influence their opinions, or whether they'll cling bitterly to their starting prejudices regardless of what's happening out here in the real world.

 

[snakestretcher]

It can make a big difference because there is no history of using genetic vaccines on large numbers of healthy people. There are many experts who are concerned about the unpredictable, and longterm, effects they might have.

Which 'experts'? Here's the news; whenever a new drug is marketed nobody knows what its long-term effects might be. Unless, of course, they have the power of clairvoyance.

 

[snakestretcher]

How in the world could you know that? The best vaccine experts don't know that. The immune system is complex and poorly understood.

By you, clearly, given that you have no clinical training whatsoever and distrust everything pharmaceutical. Thousands of immunologists I'm sure would disagree.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I've read a great deal on it. However, to your point, I haven't read a lot of the scaremongering propaganda that's aimed at the scientifically illiterate.... you know the type-- calling these "genetic vaccines" or "gene therapies," and vaguely asserting risks of long term negative consequences, in order to frighten people out of protecting themselves against the COVID virus. Early on, I read a bit of that agitprop, but it's really aimed at the poorly educated, and anyone with a decent grounding even in high-school-level biology will spot so many errors so quickly that it becomes difficult to slog through.

I am not scientifically illiterate, and I am skeptical of anything I read about covid. What you mean by "scaremongering propaganda" probably includes anything not from official mainstream medical authorities.

The covid vaccines ARE genetic vaccines. They are NOT gene therapy, but "genetic vaccine" is accurate. Look it up.

The mRNA is incredibly delicate, which is why the vaccines must be kept at such low temperatures. In the body they start breaking down almost immediately, so there's only a short window when the body is manufacturing those proteins. The proteins themselves can linger for many weeks after that, since they're more durable and take a while for the immune system to find and destroy. But they're inert, so they don't really matter.

In general foreign mRNA is destroyed quickly by the body. However, this mRNA is genetically modified to be more durable. And the spike proteins that are generated DO REALLY MATTER!! Where did you ever hear that they don't? The spike proteins are known to be toxic, and capable of causing cardiovascular, neurological, and autoimmune diseases. And it is not known how long they can stay in the body, or what organs they might get into.

No, that doesn't happen. If it did, what we'd see is the opposite of what all the clinical trials and all the real-world results show. That is, we'd see vaccinated people having higher mortality from COVID, when in fact they have much, much lower mortality.

That is NOT true! If the vaccines suppress the immune system's response to the covid spikes, we would expect to see LOWER mortality among the vaccinated. Death from covid is caused by an over-reacting immune system, and extreme inflammation. So suppressing the immune system is exactly what would save lives.

If it were that easy to confuse the immune system, every virus would prove incurable, since they all wind up invading the cells and hijacking its equipment to produce copies of themselves, so that they all wind up around or within cells in a way that this speculation would imagine could teach the immune system to tolerate them as friendly.

I never said it's easy to confuse the immune system. But this is an artificial intervention that would not happen in nature, that we never encountered in millions of years of evolution. The body's own cells are wearing covid spikes, and this could teach the immune system to be tolerant of the spikes.

It is. However, people with no grounding in science can be easily spun by anti-vax propaganda. It's interesting to note that there is enormous cross-over between those easy marks and the people who have fallen for climate denialism. I think the reason people tend to be drawn to both pathologies, if they're susceptible to either, is they're emotionally drawn to the idea that they have secret wisdom that has somehow eluded the vast majority of people who have made it their life's work to understand a field. They get some sort of ego charge out of it.... which would be fine, if they weren't mindlessly becoming a part of a disinformation campaign that is responsible for an enormous number of preventable deaths.

You are wrong. Sometimes the mainstream medical authorities are mistaken, and there is nothing wrong with noticing that. You have been taught that only medical authorities are qualified to read and evaluate the research, and to have opinions.

 

[Mina]

The covid vaccines ARE genetic vaccines

There are different COVID vaccines and they work in different ways. Presumably you're referring to some of them being mRNA vaccines. Others are more traditional vaccines that just used parts of the virus.

In general foreign mRNA is destroyed quickly by the body. However, this mRNA is genetically modified to be more durable.

Yet even with those modifications, they require deep cold storage, because they're so fragile.

And the spike proteins that are generated DO REALLY MATTER!! Where did you ever hear that they don't?

You misunderstood what I wrote. Go back and reread.

The spike proteins are known to be toxic, and capable of causing cardiovascular, neurological, and autoimmune diseases.

Just about ANY protein can cause reactions in some individuals. Proteins are typically what make some people allergic to some foods, for example. And, yes, there are people who have had reactions to these vaccines -- a lot fewer to the mRNA vaccines than to the traditional ones, but there's a risk with all of them. It's just that the risk is statistically vastly smaller than the reduced risk from the virus, which is why you find much lower rates of death and serious illness among the vaccinated.

That is NOT true! If the vaccines suppress the immune system's response to the covid spikes

The vaccines speed the immune system's targeted response to the COVID spikes. That is why we see lower mortality among the vaccinated. You're presumably confusing a specific response prepped by that virus (and efficient dismantling of the protein in question, destroying the virus), to a more systemic response that happens before the body can mobilized in that more targeted way (e.g., systemic inflammation). One reason the unvaccinated are dying at vastly higher rates is they get stuck in that slow burn situation of destructive inflammation for a lot longer, rather than having their body prepped to clear the virus quikcly.

Death from covid is caused by an over-reacting immune system, and extreme inflammation

This isn't like a 1918 virus, with the highest death rates among those with the strongest immune systems, thanks to cytokine storms. The highest death rates are among the elderly and those whose immune systems have been suppressed through various means (including people who got organ transplants and are on anti-rejection drugs, people on certain arthritis drugs that work by quieting the immune system, people whose immune systems have been beaten down by cancer, etc.)

But this is an artificial intervention that would not happen in nature, that we never encountered in millions of years of evolution.

The same is true for most new medical interventions. It was, for instance, true of antibiotics, and of every single vaccine before this.

The body's own cells are wearing covid spikes, and this could teach the immune system to be tolerant of the spikes.

Yet, it turns out, it doesn't do that. If it did, we'd be seeing lower COVID death rates among those who didn't get vaccinated, when in fact we see much, much higher rates in that group. This is why we do clinical trials. We had double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials, in which we would have seen the results of the immune system being taught to ignore COVID. It's a fun little wacky theory, but it turns out to be false.

You are wrong. Sometimes the mainstream medical authorities are mistaken

Yep. And far more often wingnut conspiracy theorists are wrong. In fact, they're wrong about just about everything. So, when I'm getting one line of advice from nearly every brilliant person who has made a career of studying a topic, and another line of advice from a bunch of Trump-fellating bozos who just stepped away from their climate change denialism long enough to hype the risk of vaccines, I'm sure you can predict which of the two I'm more likely to heed.

You have been taught that only medical authorities are qualified to read and evaluate the research, and to have opinions.

I haven't. You have been taught that if you really, really want something to be true, you can Google randomly until you find a right-wing source willing to confirm that prejudice.

 

[Good4Nothin]

There are different COVID vaccines and they work in different ways. Presumably you're referring to some of them being mRNA vaccines. Others are more traditional vaccines that just used parts of the virus.

You didn't know that the Pfizer and Moderna covid vaccines use mRNA? And those vaccines are the ones that most people have taken? Presumably I was referring to some of them being mRNA vaccines? MOST of the covid vaccines that have been taken are GENETIC vaccines. As I said.

Just about ANY protein can cause reactions in some individuals. Proteins are typically what make some people allergic to some foods, for example. And, yes, there are people who have had reactions to these vaccines -- a lot fewer to the mRNA vaccines than to the traditional ones, but there's a risk with all of them. It's just that the risk is statistically vastly smaller than the reduced risk from the virus, which is why you find much lower rates of death and serious illness among the vaccinated.

The covid spikes are known to be very toxic. So what if some people are allergic to some foods? The covid spikes are toxic to everyone.

And I explained why serious disease and death from covid is less common among the vaccinated. Because the genetic vaccines SUPPRESS the immune system response to covid spikes. These vaccines (probably) do the OPPOSITE of what vaccines are supposed to do. The symptoms of a virus result from the immune system reaction. If you suppress the immune system reaction, it will seem that the disease is less severe.

For people with diabetes, especially, the inflammation resulting from the over-reacting immune system has been the main cause of death from covid.

The vaccines speed the immune system's targeted response to the COVID spikes. That is why we see lower mortality among the vaccinated.

That is what the vaccine makers and medical authorities seem to think. I tried to explain that the opposite is what actually happens.

You're presumably confusing a specific response prepped by that virus (and efficient dismantling of the protein in question, destroying the virus), to a more systemic response that happens before the body can mobilized in that more targeted way (e.g., systemic inflammation). One reason the unvaccinated are dying at vastly higher rates is they get stuck in that slow burn situation of destructive inflammation for a lot longer, rather than having their body prepped to clear the virus quikcly.

By the time people are dying from the inflammation, the virus is already gone. The over-reaction might result from a type 2 diabetic's immune system being out of wack. Most of the covid deaths were patients who were obese or elderly -- in both of those groups, type 2 diabetes is common.

This isn't like a 1918 virus, with the highest death rates among those with the strongest immune systems, thanks to cytokine storms. The highest death rates are among the elderly and those whose immune systems have been suppressed through various means (including people who got organ transplants and are on anti-rejection drugs, people on certain arthritis drugs that work by quieting the immune system, people whose immune systems have been beaten down by cancer, etc.)

If that were true, then covid death would not be caused by extreme inflammation. But it is. So your thinking is exactly backwards.

The same is true for most new medical interventions. It was, for instance, true of antibiotics, and of every single vaccine before this.

Previous vaccines, and antibiotics, were not nearly as unnatural as the covid mRNA vaccines.

Yet, it turns out, it doesn't do that. If it did, we'd be seeing lower COVID death rates among those who didn't get vaccinated, when in fact we see much, much higher rates in that group. This is why we do clinical trials. We had double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials, in which we would have seen the results of the immune system being taught to ignore COVID. It's a fun little wacky theory, but it turns out to be false.

You ignore or fail to understand every thing I said. Covid death is lower in the vaccinated (I said this several times), because the vaccines suppress the immune response to covid. Severe disease and death among those with type 2 diabetes is less likely if they are vaccinated. NOT because the vaccines work like normal vaccines. They work as immune suppressing agents. Immune suppression is often a treatment for inflammatory diseases.

 

[snakestretcher]

I don’t answer stupid questions from youngsters.

And Yes it is. And nothing his water carriers say can change that. He hides his political agenda, and at times incompetence, under the umbrella of science. Think of it like how leftist use the race card as their ace in the hole.

You don't "answer stupid questions" from youngsters? Are you of the opinion that wisdom is automatically conferred with age? Then again you prefer unimpeachable sources like ZeroHedge for your 'facts'

 

[snakestretcher]

You didn't know that the Pfizer and Moderna covid vaccines use mRNA? And those vaccines are the ones that most people have taken? Presumably I was referring to some of them being mRNA vaccines? MOST of the covid vaccines that have been taken are GENETIC vaccines. As I said.

The covid spikes are known to be very toxic. So what if some people are allergic to some foods? The covid spikes are toxic to everyone.

And I explained why serious disease and death from covid is less common among the vaccinated. Because the genetic vaccines SUPPRESS the immune system response to covid spikes. These vaccines (probably) do the OPPOSITE of what vaccines are supposed to do. The symptoms of a virus result from the immune system reaction. If you suppress the immune system reaction, it will seem that the disease is less severe.

For people with diabetes, especially, the inflammation resulting from the over-reacting immune system has been the main cause of death from covid.



That is what the vaccine makers and medical authorities seem to think. I tried to explain that the opposite is what actually happens.



By the time people are dying from the inflammation, the virus is already gone. The over-reaction might result from a type 2 diabetic's immune system being out of wack. Most of the covid deaths were patients who were obese or elderly -- in both of those groups, type 2 diabetes is common.


If that were true, then covid death would not be caused by extreme inflammation. But it is. So your thinking is exactly backwards.



Previous vaccines, and antibiotics, were not nearly as unnatural as the covid mRNA vaccines.



You ignore or fail to understand every thing I said. Covid death is lower in the vaccinated (I said this several times), because the vaccines suppress the immune response to covid. Severe disease and death among those with type 2 diabetes is less likely if they are vaccinated. NOT because the vaccines work like normal vaccines. They work as immune suppressing agents. Immune suppression is often a treatment for inflammatory diseases.

Why do mRNA vaccines concern you so much when they have saved millions of lives, worldwide? Because...?