21 grams, is there a soul or not? (1 Viewer)

[anie]

It is scientific proved that the body looses 21 grams at the time of death. Is it true that we all have spirits who leave our bodies at the same time our hearts stop beating? or do we get our mentality only from electrical pulses and carbon and hydrogen molecules?

In the early 1900s Dr Duncall McDougall tried to prove that the soul is material and measurable, then just a way of expressing religious conciseness. His attempts were made by measuring the body mass of dying people before and after the time of death. On this way, he got the answer of 21 grams, which has become the symbol of the soul’s mass.

Is taking religion to a higher level of science the right thing to do? Or should man kind leave the inexplicable things in our lives untouched, as they’re too complicated for a human being to understand because they’re godly? Is turning religion into scientific facts sooner or later going to destroy the religion, or is it just going to make it more truthful and tempting to people (who don’t believe in God/Mohammed or what so ever his/hers/their names is) to become religious?

But why does the soul leave the body and where does it go? Is it true that all souls leave earth and go to heaven or are they still among us here left on earth? Have you ever felt a cold wind or the déjà vu feeling that you’ve meet someone before? Think about it, couldn’t it be a soul?

I believe there is a soul in everyone, though I don’t really believe in some kind of afterlife. Reincarnation would maybe be an alternative, but I’m not that sure if I consider myself as an old soul, which just has moved to another body (to settle down and live a new life.)

21 grams or not, is there something called a soul or a spirit inside of us? And does it leave our bodies at the moment of our deaths? Could we or could not consider ourselves capable of measuring a souls mass? And, should we turn religion into science?

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Turning from faith to science is telling of the strength and need of your faith. This 21 gram phenomena is highly unlikely and I would love to see substantive proof of it. A google search provided little peer reviewed scientific journals.

 

[MrFungus420]

It is scientific proved that the body looses 21 grams at the time of death. Is it true that we all have spirits who leave our bodies at the same time our hearts stop beating? or do we get our mentality only from electrical pulses and carbon and hydrogen molecules?

In the early 1900s Dr Duncall McDougall tried to prove that the soul is material and measurable, then just a way of expressing religious conciseness. His attempts were made by measuring the body mass of dying people before and after the time of death. On this way, he got the answer of 21 grams, which has become the symbol of the soul’s mass.

It's been a while since I've seen this claim brought up.

Here, from the Urban Legends Reference Page: http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

"So, out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight (and nothing more), two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. And even these results cannot be accepted at face value as the potential for experimental error was extremely high, especially since MacDougall and his colleagues often had difficulty in determining the precise moment of death, one of the key factors in their experiments."

Here is a copy of the article that MacDougall published: http://www.ghostweb.com/soul.html

Is taking religion to a higher level of science the right thing to do?

Yes. If we didn't do that, we would still think that storms were caused because the gods were angry. We'd still think that diseases, and the recovery from them, was just "God's will" or the action of evil spirits.

Or should man kind leave the inexplicable things in our lives untouched, as they’re too complicated for a human being to understand because they’re godly?

Being able to understand something comes from a chain of knowledge. A couple hundred years ago, the causes of disease were inexplicable because we didn't have the knowledge base to test for or see bacteria. Farther back, thunder and lightning were inexplicable because we didn't have the knowledge base to understand them.

You cannot truly say that something is inexplicable. The most that you can say is that we can't explain something now.

Is turning religion into scientific facts sooner or later going to destroy the religion, or is it just going to make it more truthful and tempting to people (who don’t believe in God/Mohammed or what so ever his/hers/their names is) to become religious?

Well, since science has yet to agree with the religious explanation for anything of which I'm aware, I don't see how it would make religion "more truthful and tempting". Science tends to do the precise opposite. Virtually any claim that any religion makes that is testable is shown to be incorrect, or at least have absolutely no corroborating evidence, whether it is saying that the gods live on the top of Mt. Olympus or claims of a global flood.

But why does the soul leave the body and where does it go? Is it true that all souls leave earth and go to heaven or are they still among us here left on earth?

Or, in the face of a complete lack of evidence of a soul, that it's existence is nothing more than a myth brought about by our collective fear of dying?

Have you ever felt a cold wind or the déjà vu feeling that you’ve meet someone before? Think about it, couldn’t it be a soul?

Doubtful in the extreme.

I believe there is a soul in everyone, though I don’t really believe in some kind of afterlife. Reincarnation would maybe be an alternative, but I’m not that sure if I consider myself as an old soul, which just has moved to another body (to settle down and live a new life.)

How can you believe in a soul and not believe in some sort of afterlife? One of the ideas behind a soul is that it is an undying core that is our actual being. If it is undying, then there must be some sort of afterlife.

21 grams or not, is there something called a soul or a spirit inside of us?

Personally, I say no.

And does it leave our bodies at the moment of our deaths? Could we or could not consider ourselves capable of measuring a souls mass?

Why? To be able to do so, assuming that the soul even exists, would require that the soul have some physical component. I would think that is contradictory to the very idea of a soul.

And, should we turn religion into science?

That depends, should we turn teapots into grapefruit?

If you meant should we subject religious claims to scientific analysis, then absolutely yes.

 

[Jerry]

It is scientific proved that the body looses 21 grams at the time of death. Is it true that we all have spirits who leave our bodies at the same time our hearts stop beating? or do we get our mentality only from electrical pulses and carbon and hydrogen molecules?

In the early 1900s Dr Duncall McDougall tried to prove that the soul is material and measurable, then just a way of expressing religious conciseness. His attempts were made by measuring the body mass of dying people before and after the time of death. On this way, he got the answer of 21 grams, which has become the symbol of the soul’s mass.

Is taking religion to a higher level of science the right thing to do? Or should man kind leave the inexplicable things in our lives untouched, as they’re too complicated for a human being to understand because they’re godly? Is turning religion into scientific facts sooner or later going to destroy the religion, or is it just going to make it more truthful and tempting to people (who don’t believe in God/Mohammed or what so ever his/hers/their names is) to become religious?

But why does the soul leave the body and where does it go? Is it true that all souls leave earth and go to heaven or are they still among us here left on earth? Have you ever felt a cold wind or the déjà vu feeling that you’ve meet someone before? Think about it, couldn’t it be a soul?

I believe there is a soul in everyone, though I don’t really believe in some kind of afterlife. Reincarnation would maybe be an alternative, but I’m not that sure if I consider myself as an old soul, which just has moved to another body (to settle down and live a new life.)

21 grams or not, is there something called a soul or a spirit inside of us? And does it leave our bodies at the moment of our deaths? Could we or could not consider ourselves capable of measuring a souls mass? And, should we turn religion into science?

....if you want to post something about religion and science without being able to argue it to a conclusion, try something like this instead.

It's at least slightly more entertaining.

 

[anie]

Maybe I am wrong with the believe that the body loose weight after death but the real question is; What makes our mentality part work? Is there only electrical pulses that enable us to think and decide or is there actually a soul, a mental being within our body that doesn’t have a physical appearance and then also no apparent mass?

 

[Kandahar]

Maybe I am wrong with the believe that the body loose weight after death but the real question is; What makes our mentality part work? Is there only electrical pulses that enable us to think and decide or is there actually a soul, a mental being within our body that doesn’t have a physical appearance and then also no apparent mass?

Yes, it's just the electrical pulses. What makes us who we are are the way the neurons in our brain are interconnected. There are more combinations of neural connections than there are atoms in the universe, so obviously no two brains are exactly alike.

 

[rathi]

Although it is very doubtful that this is true, it would quite interesting if it were.

It would screw over the anti-abortion crowd though, as it would prove that life does not being at conception. Zygotes don't weigh 21 grams.

 

[americanwoman]

Although it is very doubtful that this is true, it would quite interesting if it were.

It would screw over the anti-abortion crowd though, as it would prove that life does not being at conception. Zygotes don't weigh 21 grams.[/QUOTE]


oooh, great point!

 

[Vincent]

It is scientific proved that the body looses 21 grams at the time of death. Is it true that we all have spirits who leave our bodies at the same time our hearts stop beating? or do we get our mentality only from electrical pulses and carbon and hydrogen molecules?

In the early 1900s Dr Duncall McDougall tried to prove that the soul is material and measurable, then just a way of expressing religious conciseness. His attempts were made by measuring the body mass of dying people before and after the time of death. On this way, he got the answer of 21 grams, which has become the symbol of the soul’s mass.

Is taking religion to a higher level of science the right thing to do? Or should man kind leave the inexplicable things in our lives untouched, as they’re too complicated for a human being to understand because they’re godly? Is turning religion into scientific facts sooner or later going to destroy the religion, or is it just going to make it more truthful and tempting to people (who don’t believe in God/Mohammed or what so ever his/hers/their names is) to become religious?

But why does the soul leave the body and where does it go? Is it true that all souls leave earth and go to heaven or are they still among us here left on earth? Have you ever felt a cold wind or the déjà vu feeling that you’ve meet someone before? Think about it, couldn’t it be a soul?

I believe there is a soul in everyone, though I don’t really believe in some kind of afterlife. Reincarnation would maybe be an alternative, but I’m not that sure if I consider myself as an old soul, which just has moved to another body (to settle down and live a new life.)

21 grams or not, is there something called a soul or a spirit inside of us? And does it leave our bodies at the moment of our deaths? Could we or could not consider ourselves capable of measuring a souls mass? And, should we turn religion into science?

We humans have a spirit and soul. But I don't know if it weighs 21 grams.

 

[jallman]

At the time of death, all of the muscles relax...including those that hold your bowels closed. I don't know if it is 21 grams or not, but all waste is expelled from the body soon after the time of death. That would definitely account for a significant weight loss.

 

[cherokee]

At the time of death, all of the muscles relax...including those that hold your bowels closed. I don't know if it is 21 grams or not, but all waste is expelled from the body soon after the time of death. That would definitely account for a significant weight loss.

And with some people I know that weight loss would be astronomical....:shock:

 

[talloulou]

It would be odd to expect that if we did have souls with mass that could be measured that all souls would weigh the same, wouldn't it?

 

[Dezaad]

Although it is very doubtful that this is true, it would quite interesting if it were.

It would screw over the anti-abortion crowd though, as it would prove that life does not being at conception. Zygotes don't weigh 21 grams.

Definitely a good point. But, with religion, you just get to make up something new to cover the countervailing point, so I am sure they would survive the discovery.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Not to mention the fact that they can split into twins, or merge into a chimera.

What? Can one soul become two souls? Do twins only have half a soul each? Do chimeras have two? Does that mean some people had more soul than James Brown?

 

[nes]

I think that souls don't weigh anything and don't interact with our environment (have mass, etc).

 

[Spartacus FPV]

I think that souls don't weigh anything and don't interact with our environment (have mass, etc).

So if they're intangible, what makes you think that?

 

[MrFungus420]

It's still nothing more than (at best) bad science.

To quote myself (post 3 of this thread):

Here, from the Urban Legends Reference Page: http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

"So, out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight (and nothing more), two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. And even these results cannot be accepted at face value as the potential for experimental error was extremely high, especially since MacDougall and his colleagues often had difficulty in determining the precise moment of death, one of the key factors in their experiments."

Here is a copy of the article that MacDougall published: http://www.ghostweb.com/soul.html