• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

2 women allegedly killed by relatives for kiss seen in online video

I didn't say innate sense. I said 'innate sense of moral'. We both know what I mean by a sense of moral.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk

I think we do. But I also think that the argument as you constructed means everything and nothing.

People had an “innate sense” for centuries that those of other faiths were not worthy of protection or people of different colours or genders were less than others. Those people would have viewed their own innate sense of morals to naturally align to their own views.

I actually have a similar view, but suspect the cause is effectively evolutionary and biological.

My view is also less absolutist about causality. I do not believe a purely natural/innate morality is optimal. Some morality must be derived through reason, and absent that reason any morality, including that derived from innate senses, is sub-optimal.
 
We have an innate sense of moral. It is a gift from God. Some neglect using it, so far so they may begin to claim there is no such a thing.


the problem is that when we use Gods to establish morals, Some of these Gods are miles apart, and in many cases 180 degrees different.
Most of the Gods we deal with are products of the bronze age, when an outdated form of standards for life existed.
 
Those are different. I am talking about different perspectives on morality. Where you just assert without support.

nope, it is a fact that morality comes from God
 
Yes I know. But why was it “wrong” where catholicism was “right” from a moral perspective?

As whether Arianism or Catholicism prevailed was a matter of how human beings interacted and behaved (eg, what would have happened if Constantine was hit by a stray arrow or died of disease), and as Aroanism was persecuted to oblivion (immorally), how can you possibly say that current Christianity is correct? And if it isn’t correct, its morality is not from god, but from those who implement it.

morality comes from God

period!
 
the problem is that when we use Gods to establish morals, Some of these Gods are miles apart, and in many cases 180 degrees different.
Most of the Gods we deal with are products of the bronze age, when an outdated form of standards for life existed.

nope, gods of south america was reached by Dimethyltryptamine in NATURE,different from abrahamic gods
 
morality comes from God

period!

How do you account for the differences.
Lets just use Islam and christianity

What can put you in heaven in one, can put you in hell in another.
 
How do you account for the differences.
Lets just use Islam and christianity

What can put you in heaven in one, can put you in hell in another.

they are the same morality
 
How do you account for the differences.
Lets just use Islam and christianity

What can put you in heaven in one, can put you in hell in another.

Hmmm


If I kill a Jew in Israel, I can be rewarded by the Pallie government, and have a greater reward in heaven.

If I kill a Jew in Skokie I'll, I can get executed, and go to hell.
 
nope, it is a fact that morality comes from God

That is not a fact. It is an opinion which at this point is completely unsupported by any evidence or arguments that you have made.

We've been over this, and how you can do better.
 
That is not a fact. It is an opinion which at this point is completely unsupported by any evidence or arguments that you have made.

We've been over this, and how you can do better.
Are you another one who'd rather spend an eternity in hell than be honest for a day?

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk
 
morality comes from God

period!

OK, so to actually build out your argument for you to show you how it works and what it means, you have a few places to go:

1. God works through determinism, such that our current views of morality as set out in how we interpret what God has told us was what God wanted, and God caused events to unfold such that religions that align with his view of morality have triumphed in our part of the world over less moral religions with different views (like paganism), while other religions in other parts we don't like and view as less moral are there to test us.

This view has all different sorts of implications for free agency, personal responsibility and the dehumanization of people who have different religions (and therefore is seemingly immoral on that basis).

It sets op violent conflicts between civilizations, and within civilizations, with each thinking that God is on their side and that they are fated by God to spread his True Word and therefore any conduct effected to do that is moral (e.g., Islamic expansion, the various shenanigans the Crusaders got into through their efforts like the sack of Constantinople)

It also doesn't really say how very close strains of the same religion can have very different views of morality (e.g., compare Mormon beliefs on marriage to other Christians; compare catholic views on pre-marital sex to Protestantism) which makes it hard to know which one of the umpteen religions God actually wants to win.

2. God is the cause of and has created a system of morality, but it is up to humanity to do better to strive towards it because we are imperfect. So religion as it exists and as it is practiced may be moral, but it also may be imperfect and immoral because of how we imperfect beings have interpreted it..

This seems to align pretty well with Rabbinic Judaism's overall philosophy and very badly with Islamic theology. Various Christian branches (there are a crap ton of them) are all over the map on this.

I think this is a fine, but unfalsifiable and unverifiable claim. It also doesn't say much about what morality actually IS, only that whatever happens to be moral is what God had intended. We can try to use holy books for guidance, which I actually don't think is a bad idea because holy books are not so different from philosophical treatises at part of their core, but ultimately we need to use our own reasoning and our own assessment or reality and the implications of conduct to assess whether God intended for us to act in a particular way.

A question: Does God think it is morally right to execute gay people or adulturers?

Do we draw on broad moral principles set out in scriptures, or do we look at specific prohibitions as trumping those without recognition that God may have intended morality to evolve as humanity evolved? How do we parse through conflicting or inconsistent moral guidance in scripture?

And if we think the answer in scripture is clear, what do we ACTUALLY think? Do you actually think it is ok to kill people for the "good of the community" or for "sins against god" if they did not really have a choice in their sexual preference (which we now know is largely the case)? Or do we engage in conduct that deep down we think is immoral because we have given up moral agency to various religious leaders and writings?


Looking forward to your one line, dismissive non-response that emptily reasserts that everything comes from God.
 
Last edited:
Are you another one who'd rather spend an eternity in hell than be honest for a day?

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk

No. I would rather be omnipotent and immoral.

But I also don't really play the "would you rather" game with my kids either, because, like here, it involves two imaginary scenarios neither of which are achievable in real life.

And being "honest for a day", makes me less likely to embrace a God, let alone yours, so I'm not sure honesty really helps you (me?) there.

Morality could have been planted by God and perfect morality may even be derived from God's will. That's fine. But how we assess morality and whether we acct morally is our own personal responsibility.
 
No. I would rather be omnipotent and immoral.

But I also don't really play the "would you rather" game with my kids either, because, like here, it involves two imaginary scenarios neither of which are achievable in real life.

And being "honest for a day", makes me less likely to embrace a God, let alone yours, so I'm not sure honesty really helps you (me?) there.

Morality could have been planted by God and perfect morality may even be derived from God's will. That's fine. But how we assess morality and whether we acct morally is our own personal responsibility.
Yes, responsibility. You are responsible for your lies and wherever your arrogance leads you to. This exactly what the Abrahamic faiths believe.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk
 
Yes, responsibility. You are responsible for your lies and wherever your arrogance leads you to. This exactly what the Abrahamic faiths believe.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk

Huh? Which lies are those, exactly?

As for arrogance, it’s sort of dripping off your posts, so you might want to check the jesus meter and see how you are doing on the heaven/hell thing.
 
Yes, responsibility. You are responsible for your lies and wherever your arrogance leads you to. This exactly what the Abrahamic faiths believe.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk


actually you cant broadbrush the Abrahamic faiths.
Everytime the God changed hands the rules, rituals, and morals changed with them.
 
actually you cant broadbrush the Abrahamic faiths.
Everytime the God changed hands the rules, rituals, and morals changed with them.
You can't rely on unreliable scripture to tell you that. But even if you do — this one did not change. It is mentioned so in the OT, NT and the Quran.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk
 
You can't rely on unreliable scripture to tell you that. But even if you do — this one did not change. It is mentioned so in the OT, NT and the Quran.

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk

I have no idea WTF you are talking about.
what scripture.
 
OK, so to actually build out your argument for you to show you how it works and what it means, you have a few places to go:

1. God works through determinism, such that our current views of morality as set out in how we interpret what God has told us was what God wanted, and God caused events to unfold such that religions that align with his view of morality have triumphed in our part of the world over less moral religions with different views (like paganism), while other religions in other parts we don't like and view as less moral are there to test us.

This view has all different sorts of implications for free agency, personal responsibility and the dehumanization of people who have different religions (and therefore is seemingly immoral on that basis).

It sets op violent conflicts between civilizations, and within civilizations, with each thinking that God is on their side and that they are fated by God to spread his True Word and therefore any conduct effected to do that is moral (e.g., Islamic expansion, the various shenanigans the Crusaders got into through their efforts like the sack of Constantinople)

It also doesn't really say how very close strains of the same religion can have very different views of morality (e.g., compare Mormon beliefs on marriage to other Christians; compare catholic views on pre-marital sex to Protestantism) which makes it hard to know which one of the umpteen religions God actually wants to win.

2. God is the cause of and has created a system of morality, but it is up to humanity to do better to strive towards it because we are imperfect. So religion as it exists and as it is practiced may be moral, but it also may be imperfect and immoral because of how we imperfect beings have interpreted it..

This seems to align pretty well with Rabbinic Judaism's overall philosophy and very badly with Islamic theology. Various Christian branches (there are a crap ton of them) are all over the map on this.

I think this is a fine, but unfalsifiable and unverifiable claim. It also doesn't say much about what morality actually IS, only that whatever happens to be moral is what God had intended. We can try to use holy books for guidance, which I actually don't think is a bad idea because holy books are not so different from philosophical treatises at part of their core, but ultimately we need to use our own reasoning and our own assessment or reality and the implications of conduct to assess whether God intended for us to act in a particular way.

A question: Does God think it is morally right to execute gay people or adulturers?

Do we draw on broad moral principles set out in scriptures, or do we look at specific prohibitions as trumping those without recognition that God may have intended morality to evolve as humanity evolved? How do we parse through conflicting or inconsistent moral guidance in scripture?

And if we think the answer in scripture is clear, what do we ACTUALLY think? Do you actually think it is ok to kill people for the "good of the community" or for "sins against god" if they did not really have a choice in their sexual preference (which we now know is largely the case)? Or do we engage in conduct that deep down we think is immoral because we have given up moral agency to various religious leaders and writings?


Looking forward to your one line, dismissive non-response that emptily reasserts that everything comes from God.


number 2 is wrong because gods morality can NOT be bad
 
That is not a fact. It is an opinion which at this point is completely unsupported by any evidence or arguments that you have made.

We've been over this, and how you can do better.

actually it is a fact
 
Back
Top Bottom