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2 Counts of Murder: Mother and SON

easyt65

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/11/12/PETERSON12.TMP

Scott Peterson was found guilty today of murdering his wife, Laci, and the couple's unborn child, climaxing an internationally watched trial that took so many unexpected twists it became as much a bizarre show as it was a legal proceeding.

I have been told, based on opinion, that the court's decision in the Peterson trial was that Scott was not found guilty of killing his unborn child but rather:

1. Laci's CHOICE to have the baby or not.
-- You can not killa CHOIVE, and you can not be found guilty of murdering a CHOICE!

2. A Fetus.
-- You can't kill a baby, but you can kill a fetus? You can't be charged with murder for killing a fetus - abortions rights gorups have seen to that. Wrong again!

Peterson was found guilty of killing 2 PEOPLE, the wife and the UNBORN SON! This court decision lays the foundation for the argument that unborn children have rights!

As I have said, this opens the door for a trip to the USSC for the final (?) word.
 
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ngdawg

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Did you bother to read anything based on this or do you just like to start your own worthless threads?
No one said anything in the dozens of posts here about killing a choice. Read the penal codes, do a search of these forums, it's been posted more than once.
This was just laziness and a chance to inflame.

/me waves
 

easyt65

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ngdawg said:
No one said anything in the dozens of posts here about killing a choice. /me waves

WRONG - actually take the time to read the posts before you start demanding to know what is on them ALL! In a debate in the "Abortion is Murder" thread, I think it might have been Stacie, but forgive me if I have the ID wrong, argued that Peterson was NOT convicted of 2 counts of murder for killing Scott's unborn Child. The person argued that Scott was charged with the 2nd count for taking away Laci's CHOICE! Your arguing so avidly proves to me that YOU think that is as stupid an argument as I do!
 

doughgirl

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"On November 12, the same six-man, six-woman jury convicted Peterson of first-degree murder with special circumstances in the death of Laci, who was eight months pregnant, and of second-degree murder in the death of the fetus, which the couple planned to name Conner." (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/13/peterson.case/)

MURDER
 

BodiSatva

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The whole "you can't murder a 'Choice'" thing always bothered me, simply because it is calling a potential or actual baby human a "choice".
But then again, the whole "The state or anybody else gets to tell you what to do with your body at any time" thing bothers me too.

I would not want my wife to ever have an abortion...
We love to have babies...

But unless it is late term, I am not comfortable knowing that a woman can't decide what is in her best interest. A woman is not a cargo container for something she may not want for almost a year simply because she became pregnant.

A sensitive topic
 

easyt65

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doughgirl said:
"On November 12, the same six-man, six-woman jury convicted Peterson of first-degree murder with special circumstances in the death of Laci, who was eight months pregnant, and of second-degree murder in the death of the fetus, which the couple planned to name Conner." (http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12/13/peterson.case/)

MURDER

CNN's Rusty Dornin contributed to this report.


The piece you clipped above is what Rusty Dornin wrote, from what i could read in the article. It was not the official transcript from the case, was not the official verdict, just the sourt decision according to Rusty.

As I said, many people are putting their own words to this.

Murder of a Fetus?

1. WHERE does it say in any law that anyone can be convicted of murdering a FETUS? No where that I know of, so the answer must be that the court decision recognizes the unborn child and that child's rights!

2. If you disagree with THAT, then you must acknowledge that Peterson was convicted of killing a Fetus, meaning the Fetus has rights and is protected by the law! By your ownpost above, you argue Peterson was found guilty of MURDER for killing a FETUS.

Either way, this decision has opened up the opportunity to argue that the court has recognized that an unborn child OR, based on your choice om semantics/wording, a FETUS has rights and is protected from murder!


I am not arguing either case - I am just arguing that there is an opportunity to argue the interpretation of this court case. I am not the one you have to convince that this is wrong - mark my words, this could open the door for a challenge of RoeVsWad in the USSC by a group so inclined to argue such a p[oint!
 

easyt65

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BodiSatva said:
The whole "you can't murder a 'Choice'" thing always bothered me, simply because it is calling a potential or actual baby human a "choice".
But then again, the whole "The state or anybody else gets to tell you what to do with your body at any time" thing bothers me too.

I would not want my wife to ever have an abortion...
We love to have babies...

But unless it is late term, I am not comfortable knowing that a woman can't decide what is in her best interest. A woman is not a cargo container for something she may not want for almost a year simply because she became pregnant.

A sensitive topic


I agree with you, but what about:

The father not even having to be notified, therefore he has no say in his own future or the future of his 'potential' baby? IBy that, I mean the mother has the ability to make all decisions. I she doesn't want to 'ruin' HER life, she can abort. If she decides to keep the child even tough the father may not want to (givenif he had known and had been included in the decision making process), then the mother has the choice of 'ruining' the father's life by filing papers on the father for him to have to be 'saddled with the economic burden' of a choice he never got to make for the rest of his life! that seems a bit unfair to say the mother gets to make decisions that will FORCE a man's life to change yet he gets no say while women say a man has no right to make a woman's life change by having any say in the decision.

In the case of being married, I think there is a question of contractual obligation to each other, clinically speaking, yet a wife can abort without ever even letting the husband know she is pregnant!

How about the initial decision that adults/principals could take teenaged girls out of school to have abortions without telling family/guardians! when a girl is faced with a highlyemotional decision, the local goverment/schools are telling them not to turn to family but to THEM for counseling for such a decision?! I am glad to see so many states over-turning THAT one!

There are a lot of things just WRONG/debateable about this issue.
 

BodiSatva

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My opinions...

If the mother wants the baby and the dad does not...it wouold depend on the situation. My friend set up a guy. Got him drunk and had a lot of sex and became pregnant. He stepped up and took care of monetary help...but what a bitch. That made a lot of us angry. Some of the gilrs actually said stuff like, 'well, she really wanted a baby'. No idea where they are now...that was the end of that friendship.

The school thing is dumb. Under age kids should have parental notification or they give up their role as a minor. What if the girl hemorages or dies during the procedure somehow? School officials should be tried and convicted of aiding in immorality and in helping a kid make a decision without parental consent that will affect their entire life. Not legal? So what. What is legal? It is what special interest groups make it, that is all.

Shoot the principal or counselor. I guess that they could be held responsible and pay money to the would have been grandparent for undermining authority.

If the father does want the child and the mother wants an abortion...she might have to offe something? No idea...just came out...money? Stupid.

This whole thing is stupid. There is absolutely no way to satisfy all participants. It is literally impossible. The question will Never Ever EVER be settled.




Kids are minors and certain situations should remove that status, and that is that.
A woman has control of her body, and that is that.
A man has little to no rights regarding this either. It sucks, but that is that.
 

talloulou

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BodiSatva said:
This whole thing is stupid. There is absolutely no way to satisfy all participants. It is literally impossible. The question will Never Ever EVER be settled.

Maybe but I tend to hope that as a society we can come up with some middle ground that doesn't allow abortions on demand and doesn't demand that women with real health risks be forced to carry babies to term. We've come a long way with contraceptives and education and there just isn't any real reason to justify the amount of abortions occuring in this country. It doesn't have to be all or nothing just something that is more reasonable than what we currently have.

Also I do not think minors should be able to get abortions without parental consent. That's just insanity. They can't get their tonsils out without parental consent so why should they be able to get an abortion? I have a right as a parent to be informed about any risky surgery my child is having.

A man has little to no rights regarding this either. It sucks, but that is that.[/B]
I wonder how long men will continue to put up with that.
 

BodiSatva

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I agree.

The issue about minors being able to get abortions without parental consent is literally insane. I remember hearing about it when it first came out...I just shook my head at all of the stupid people out there with such determination to forward their agendas onto people.

How long will men put up with it? Good question. But what are men to do about it really? "Force" women to keep a baby that she does not want...turn her into a cargo container? That is not realistic. What if she then eats horribly or doesn't eat at all. Drinks alcohol like a fish, smokes pot like a dumbbell and punches herself in the stomach or any other crazy thing out of rage for whatever for being forced to carry child against her will? What is the man to do then...men simply do not nor will they ever have control. It is the woman’s body and that is that.

We have to suspend rationality when we think about people regarding these issues. Abortion makes people crazier than they already are.
 

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BodiSatva says, “I would not want my wife to ever have an abortion...
We love to have babies..

But unless it is late term, I am not comfortable knowing that a woman can't decide what is in her best interest.”

Wonderful you love to have babies.

1. Why does it bother you if its late term abortion?
2. Why should the womans choice stop at a certain date?
3. You say she can abort until????? When? Give me a time. Pinpoint when you think LIFE BEGINS and abortion should stop.

When its heart starts beating, because that happens in the first trimester…When? Its starts looking like a baby and it becomes a bigger size? When?
My neice was born at 21 ½ weeks was one pound and was shorter than a ruler. She lived and today is 13 years old. You would have said soemone could have legally aborted her? Heck she lived...


“A woman is not a cargo container for something she may not want for almost a year simply because she became pregnant.”

Well like you say if she is not a cargo container…….then why take her right to choose away from her even up until the natural delivery of the child? Because it makes you pro-choicers feel better about aborting something small? Does "small" mean it doesn't have as much worth?

”A sensitive topic”

It’s not sensitive……..not with the massive amounts of children being aborted daily………..not really. It's the number one surgery performed on woman today. Why should it be sensitive? Abortion is legal and the pro-choice community says abortion doesn't kill......so why should this be sensitive? :rofl


What it is..is tragic, especially for the one inside the womb, the place that is suppose to protect it from harm. Tragic because at any time, its mother just may choose to legally dismember it ALIVE. For this little creature its death by dismemberment and nothing less. I'd say each unborn child really has a bulls eyes written over his/her face. Because the odds today mean.... not many make it to full term. That is tragic.
 

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Easyt65 go to this website and you can hear the actual verdict.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/msnbc/ms111204-4s.htm


They found Scott guilty… first degree MURDER for Laci and second degree MURDER for “BABY” PETERSON…

Exact words….. he murdered BABY CONNOR PETERSON, A FETUS.


The document is on this website…http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/peterson/captrsn120103crinf2.html

The courts saw Connor as a person as they called him a baby. So the way this read….CONNOR WAS BOTH FETUS AND BABY……SAME THING. They were not talking about two different things here, but one. Connor had rights and they recognized them by finding Scott guilty.
 

BodiSatva

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“Wonderful you love to have babies” - You didn’t mean that…this is steeped in sarcasm. I should just stop there…

“Does "small" mean it doesn't have as much worth?” - Sure…like a baby is not worth as much as a really huge piece of cotton candy? Oh, I agree. I like cotton candy! And big balloons too! Haha, c,mon now…don’t lose your objectivity.

“It’s not sensitive…” Yes it is, just look at how sensitive you are. This is a sensitive topic.
“What it is..is tragic…” Yes, it is tragic as well. It is tragic when life ends…
This subject is sensitive AND the outcome is tragic.

"You pro-choicers". I like that one :2razz: - Am I supposed to feel like an Evil-doer or something horrible?

"Pro-Choice" is a stupid platform. Just like the dumb "Peace is Patriotic" slogan that the anti-war (and who the hell is actually PRO-war) crowd uses.
Everbody has a choice for evey action that they take. Murder is a choice. To sing or not to sing is a choice. Speeding is a choice... To not have an abortion is a choice...Lots of people who are for choices are for life. Darn, this is confusing. ;)

I am not in favor of abortion.
I am not in favor of killing a fetus or baby ever.
I am not in favor of war or capital punishment either…can you believe that? Holy cow!
I am in favor of life.
Abortion ends the process of a life.
That is not debatable by anyone…The process of life.
I like life…I want others to like life so much that they would like to let others live and like their lives.

I do not limit myself to the two definitions or “Pro-Choice” or “Pro-Life”. Sorry.
I don’t limit myself two political party definitions of Republican or Democrat or even any other political ideology. Religions…Any of it…
Why should a person assign themselves to think like the rest of a group?

Abortion as an issue is not black and white…this way or that…I am right and you are wrong…
If that is not clear enough, or if people think that there are only two ways to think about this subject, then that is fine, I will not try to change a person’s opinion regarding this matter…it is folly to even attempt such a feat. If you think that I contradicted myself, fine, because I did not.
 
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easyt65

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doughgirl said:
Easyt65 They found Scott guilty… first degree MURDER for Laci and second degree MURDER for “BABY” PETERSON…

Exact words….. he murdered BABY CONNOR PETERSON, A FETUS.


The document is on this website…http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/peterson/captrsn120103crinf2.html

The courts saw Connor as a person as they called him a baby. So the way this read….CONNOR WAS BOTH FETUS AND BABY……SAME THING. They were not talking about two different things here, but one. Connor had rights and they recognized them by finding Scott guilty.

THAT is what I have been saying. The court recognized Connor as a BABY, and the 2nd death sentence/guilty verdict, in priinciple, acknowledges that the UN-BORN child has rights!
 

BodiSatva

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A woman could cut her placenta...What about a mother that purposely sabatoges her pregnancy because she does not want the baby? For any reason...do not try and qualify a reason and supplant their wants with your ideals. I pointed that out here and it was overlooked...

"What if she then eats horribly or doesn't eat at all. Drinks alcohol like a fish, smokes pot like a dumbbell and punches herself in the stomach or any other crazy thing out of rage for whatever for being forced to carry child against her will? What is the man to do then...men simply do not nor will they ever have control. It is the woman’s body and that is that."

"Pro-Life" advocates need to stop fighting legislation and of taking away a person's choice to do anything, least of all a choice about what they can do to their bodies..They need to start working with science to find a way to transfer a baby from the unwilling vessel (not a mother) into an artificial Matrix style chamber that will develop the baby. Of course, it will be artificial and the baby will lose lots of experiences that way, but I am sure that they will find a way to counter that as well...

Eventually we won't need mothers at all. All the bitching can stop and we can achieve perfect artificial unity.
 

doughgirl

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Bodi said, “"You pro-choicers". I like that one - Am I supposed to feel like an Evil-doer or something horrible?”

Are you pro-choice or not? Yes/No These statements you made led me to believe you were pro-choice….

"Force" women to keep a baby that she does not want...turn her into a cargo container? That is not realistic.”

And this one at the bottom of post #8

”A woman has control of her body, and that is that.”

And this one “But unless it is late term, I am not comfortable knowing that a woman can't decide what is in her best interest. A woman is not a cargo container for something she may not want for almost a year simply because she became pregnant.”

They all led me to believe you were pro-choice……..



“My friend set up a guy. Got him drunk and had a lot of sex and became pregnant. He stepped up and took care of monetary help...but what a bitch. That made a lot of us angry. Some of the gilrs actually said stuff like, 'well, she really wanted a baby'. No idea where they are now...that was the end of that friendship.”

First of all how old was your friend? And he was what did you say….FORCED TO HAVE SEX” ……….did she tie him down and rape him……..did she tie him down and force him to drink alcohol? PLEAZZZE. Can’t pass the buck on this one. If your friend had lots of sex and drank, he was responsible. I think your friend better grow up and quit blaming others for his stupidity.



“This whole thing is stupid. There is absolutely no way to satisfy all participants. It is literally impossible. The question will Never Ever EVER be settled.”

You left one bit participant out……….the fetus, the unborn child, whose heart is already beating. The question is settled for those who are pro-life.

You did not answer these questions that I asked. I am curious as to how you would answer them.

Here they are again….
1. Why does it bother you if its a late term abortion?
2. Why should the womans choice stop at a certain date?
3. You say she can abort until????? When? Give me a time. Pinpoint when you think LIFE BEGINS and abortion should stop.



“Abortion as an issue is not black and white…this way or that…I am right and you are wrong…”

Well it is black or white for the unborn child in the womb. He either is allowed to live or his will be dismembered alive and that will end his/her life. That is clearly a black and white decision. Death or life? That is the person who the abortion decision affects the most, the unborn child.


”If that is not clear enough, or if people think that there are only two ways to think about this subject, then that is fine, I will not try to change a person’s opinion regarding this matter…it is folly to even attempt such a feat. If you think that I contradicted myself, fine, because I did not.”

But I do believe you do contradict yourself. That is why I asked you based on previous comments whether you were pro-choice or pro-life. I gave examples in this post of things you said that were very pro-choice. And what you say below in this statement….

"Pro-Life" advocates need to stop fighting legislation and of taking away a person's choice to do anything, least of all a choice about what they can do to their bodies..”


is pro-choice 100%. By your statements you are pro-choice.



“They need to start working with science to find a way to transfer a baby from the unwilling vessel (not a mother) into an artificial Matrix style chamber that will develop the baby. Of course, it will be artificial and the baby will lose lots of experiences that way, but I am sure that they will find a way to counter that as well...”


OMG this is the coldest thing I ever heard. Lose lots of experiences??????????????

”Eventually we won't need mothers at all.”


“All the bitching can stop and we can achieve perfect artificial unity.”


I don’t know what to say….wow. But these words come to mind……..cold, emotionless, robotic, scientific, meaningless, heartless, conditioning, mass production, bionic, machines,…and you would call this utopia? God help us.

No mothers???????? Gosh I just lost mine last fall and I am still devastated. I loved her with all my heart. A mother is such a precious thing. I am sorry you obviously did not share my experience.... that you would see a mothers role eliminated.
 

BodiSatva

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doughgirl - There is sarcasm and humor mixed in with what I say a lot of times, please realize this and discern as best as you can. Just take all of this with a grain of patience and stop assuming…it is clouding your mind.

Bodi –

"Force" women to keep a baby that she does not want...turn her into a cargo container? That is not realistic.”

”A woman has control of her body, and that is that.”

These are not signs that I am pro-choice. These are simple facts. It is not realistic to FORCE a woman to do something that she does not want to do…she will do what it takes to not do it if she can. And what normal woman does not have control of her body? That is weird that you even mentioned that one. How is this just not a statement of fact?

Bodi –

“But unless it is late term, I am not comfortable knowing that a woman can't decide what is in her best interest. A woman is not a cargo container for something she may not want for almost a year simply because she became pregnant.”

I am not comfortable. So? That does not mean that I am for her killing the baby. You are assuming that this is what I meant.

This next one is like when I assumed that ngdawg was a father… - “My friend set up a guy” I think that this means that my friend was the conniving woman. And she was 29 I think. He was the dumbass that got drunk and thought that they were having protected sex but did not know that she poked holes in the condom. She ended up having a stroke during birth. But the point is, again…that you assumed.

doughgirl - “You left one bit participant out……….the fetus, the unborn child”

No I did not. Bodi – “There is absolutely no way to satisfy all participants.” The baby is participating in the process of it’s own birth...is it not?

doughgirl - “Here they are again….
1. Why does it bother you if its a late term abortion?
2. Why should the womans choice stop at a certain date?
3. You say she can abort until????? When? Give me a time. Pinpoint when you think LIFE BEGINS and abortion should stop.”

1. It bothers me more because the closer to birth the baby gets, the more likely its chances of survival on its own would be. All abortions bother me though, as well. Does that all encompassing statement make you feel better? It is true.
2. A woman’s choice never stops.
3. Life begins at inception. No matter how any person looks at it…a living single celled organism is life. Abortion should not be an option, in my opinion…but it is an option in fact.

Does this help you?

Bodi – "Pro-Life" advocates need to stop fighting legislation and of taking away a person's choice to do anything, least of all a choice about what they can do to their bodies..”

doughgirl - “is pro-choice 100%. By your statements you are pro-choice”

By my statements I am looking at the issue realistically. This is an argument about strategy…not about what is right and wrong.

Bodi - “They need to start working with science to find a way to transfer a baby from the unwilling vessel (not a mother) into an artificial Matrix style chamber that will develop the baby. Of course, it will be artificial and the baby will lose lots of experiences that way, but I am sure that they will find a way to counter that as well...”

This first sentence is one idea (though not realistic) that might help save babies lives.
The second sentence is a joke. Get real. There is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A REAL LIVE MOTHER!!

Bodi - ”Eventually we won't need mothers at all.” AND “All the bitching can stop and we can achieve perfect artificial unity.”

Haha…OMG! Really? “I don’t know what to say….wow. But these words come to mind……..cold, emotionless, robotic, scientific, meaningless, heartless, conditioning, mass production, bionic, machines,…and you would call this utopia? God help us.” Sure they come to mind…those two sentences are about as stupid a thing as I could think of at that moment…so stupid that I figured that people would just chuckle and shake their heads thinking…”oh bodi…that was pretty stupid” But in doing so they would realize that it was a joke. Can you follow. Are you the robotic humorless bionic machine? Bionic would be cool…but humorless…that would suck.

To this…the most important part…
“No mothers???????? Gosh I just lost mine last fall and I am still devastated. I loved her with all my heart. A mother is such a precious thing.”

I am truly sorry for your loss. That must be hard. though we are communicating our ideas here, you are obviously a compassionate person and your mother did a wonderful job.

I love my mother and I talk with her many times a week. She is one of the four greatest females in my life, and along with my wife and two daughters, help give purpose to what I do and who I am.

Take care and let me know if I can further clarify.
 

ngdawg

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easyt65 said:
THAT is what I have been saying. The court recognized Connor as a BABY, and the 2nd death sentence/guilty verdict, in priinciple, acknowledges that the UN-BORN child has rights!
When are you going to understand that the reason for that verdict and choice to charge him with two counts was the VIABILITY (or presumed so) of Conner-he was 8 months along, considered full-term.
There have been cases of pregnant women murdered earlier in their pregnancies and NO double homicide charges lodged and cases of assault that resulted in the death of the fetus that were not considered murder. Because of VIABILITY.
:roll: <<<<I'm wearin that little guy out.....
 

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“The baby is participating in the process of it’s own birth...is it not?”

Yes it does………….but does it participate in its own death should it be aborted? NO

“By my statements I am looking at the issue realistically. This is an argument about strategy…not about what is right and wrong.”

Well realistically every abortion kills. That is fact, that is being real. And isn’t killing something without its consent wrong?

Bodi, you seem to talk then completely with sarcasm…how on earth do we separate what you say to be real and what isn’t. You said,
“Eventually we wont need mothers at all.”

I did not see humor in this one…….

I will take your word that you are pro-life and most of what you said was meant to be humerous… I guess I just got the wrong impression. Sorry.
 

BodiSatva

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No problem...though I do not talk with complete sarcasm. If I did I would have been sarcastic regarding your mother and my girls...you did not point that one out, so you can discern the difference.

The strategy is not about "Abortion", but how the Pro-Life community addresses their campaign regarding perception. The very term "Pro-Life" is propaganda. The agenda needs to change if the goal is to be met. Is this clear? This is strategy. Not emotion. Not a debate. This is about a means to an end. How does one group achieve the desired result? I think that the Pro-Life community needs to change tactics if they are to succeed in their task.

Of course killing without consent is wrong...in fact killing is just plain wrong no matter what...unless it is for survival...and I mean that literally and not with regards to abortion...

Bodi said - “Eventually we wont need mothers at all.”
This is so obviously over the top, that it is either funny/serious for the sake of being over the top in an effort to say that we in fact will always need mothers. I think it is funny. NOT because of the statement alone, but because any person that would think along these lines makes me laugh with their stupidity. Maybe that is dumb too, but that also makes it funny.

Lastly...I am not pro-life... ;)
 
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BodiSatva

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Is this statement truly confusing for you? jimmy bro...Get real.
 
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BodiSatva said:
jimmy bro...Get real.

Read what I actually say and stop making a horses rear of your statements by jumping on one line. If that one post is not enough to understand...read further back.

Why don’t you just answer my question?
 

BodiSatva

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I answered it in my previous posts...
Take the time and the initiative to understand.
 

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BodiSatva said:
I answered it in my previous posts...
Take the time and the initiative to understand.

So you are against life for some reason or other, I just need to trawl the forum for it.
 
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