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1800+ casulties? Try 9000!

Billo_Really

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What the government doesn't want you to know is this war is taking a far greater toll on us than the media is letting on. The Pentagon will not allow the caskets coming back to be shown to the country. I find this odd in a supposedly free society. What are they trying to hide? Possibly this?

1,800 dead US troops in Iraq? Try 9,000.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1709.htm

"There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. We have received copies of manifests from the MATS that show far more bodies shipped into Dover AFP than are reported officially. The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000. Given the officially acknowledged number of over 15,000 seriously wounded (and a published total of 25,000 wounded overall,), this elevated death toll is far more realistic than the current 1,800+ now being officially published. When our research is complete, and watertight, we will publish the results along with the sources In addition to the evident falsification of the death rolls, at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities. (See TBR News of 18 February for full coverage on the mass desertions) This means that of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead, over 16,000 seriously wounded (This figure is now over 24,000 Ed) and a large number of suicides, forced hospitalization for ongoing drug usage and sales, murder of Iraqi civilians and fellow soldiers, rapes, courts martial and so on

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?off.9.179947.39
 

Nezdragon

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Billo_Really said:
What the government doesn't want you to know is this war is taking a far greater toll on us than the media is letting on. The Pentagon will not allow the caskets coming back to be shown to the country. I find this odd in a supposedly free society. What are they trying to hide? Possibly this?

1,800 dead US troops in Iraq? Try 9,000.

http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a1709.htm

"There is excellent reason to believe that the Department of Defense is deliberately not reporting a significant number of the dead in Iraq. We have received copies of manifests from the MATS that show far more bodies shipped into Dover AFP than are reported officially. The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000. Given the officially acknowledged number of over 15,000 seriously wounded (and a published total of 25,000 wounded overall,), this elevated death toll is far more realistic than the current 1,800+ now being officially published. When our research is complete, and watertight, we will publish the results along with the sources In addition to the evident falsification of the death rolls, at least 5,500 American military personnel have deserted, most in Ireland but more have escaped to Canada and other European countries, none of whom are inclined to cooperate with vengeful American authorities. (See TBR News of 18 February for full coverage on the mass desertions) This means that of the 158,000 U.S. military shipped to Iraq, 26,000 deserted, were killed or seriously wounded. The DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 dead, over 16,000 seriously wounded (This figure is now over 24,000 Ed) and a large number of suicides, forced hospitalization for ongoing drug usage and sales, murder of Iraqi civilians and fellow soldiers, rapes, courts martial and so on
Educated rumor? Let me supply a translation for that oxymoron: "leftshit"

This is nothing more than a crap propaganda scheme. Unless you come up with intelligent reliable information, I should not be wasting my time here.
 

The Truth-Bringer

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Well, And Not Only Looking at The US Casualties, One Must Look at the Iraqi casualties From the Whole War Too, Which Make the US Casualties Look Minimal. The Iraqis have suffered because of this war (Fighting, And Terror Attacks, Atrocities) About 110,000 + Casualties, some People Have Said 250,000 But That seems rather High. The Propoganda Experts Have also said numbers of 30,000, But That is Like Saying 1,000,000 Died In The Holocaust or something, it simply aint true. I Think There might be some US Dead not Reported, such as people MIA, which could have died but they are using technicallities, but i doubt the number is that High.
 

Simon W. Moon

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This is BS.

Even Ted Rall backed away from this one.
 

Simon W. Moon

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The Truth-Bringer said:
Whos Post is Quote "BS"
Not a post, the story referenced in the OP that there're thousands of unreported dead.
 

Iriemon

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Actually, the term "casualties" includes the wounded, so US casualties are more like 15,000, even without accepting the theory that the Govt is hiding the number actually dead. (Which I don't buy.)
 

nedza

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Is "Leftshit" the same as "Commie", so frequently used in the fifties (to scare the american public into submission)?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon:
This is BS.
Unless you have seen the DoD list they are referring too, this is just your opinion that it is "BS". Why act like this is so outrageous? The media is not allowed to show pics of the coffins coming back. So it is apparent that the military very secretive when it comes to US casualties and the dead. So again, why would this be outrageous? You don't hide things when you have nothing to hide. You also have a government that keeps changing its story on this war. So, what's up with that?

In the realm of possibilities, this could very well be true.

Simon, your a lot better when your objective.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Iriemon said:
Actually, the term "casualties" includes the wounded, so US casualties are more like 15,000, even without accepting the theory that the Govt is hiding the number actually dead. (Which I don't buy.)
From the cited piece in the OP:

"The educated rumor is that the actual death toll is in excess of 7,000."
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Nez Dragon:
Educated rumor? Let me supply a translation for that oxymoron: "leftshit"

This is nothing more than a crap propaganda scheme. Unless you come up with intelligent reliable information, I should not be wasting my time here.
Welcome to Debate Politics!
 

nedza

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Coffins and crying people makes for bad PR and may help turn the public against the war in Iraq - I think we all know this. Neither will we see slain and mutilated marines on US TV (despite the fact that there are, or at least was, an unprecedented number of "embedded" news teams amongst the troops).

If you control the media (and the information media has access to), you control the public. This is very well understood in Russia, and it is equally well understood in the USA - in USA there are less direct ways to control what the public is exposed to though.
 

ILikeDubyah

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How about finding a non-partisan source that backs up what the leftist website says?
 

Simon W. Moon

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Billo_Really said:
Unless you have seen the DoD list they are referring too, this is just your opinion that it is "BS". Why act like this is so outrageous? The media is not allowed to show pics of the coffins coming back. So it is apparent that the military very secretive when it comes to US casualties and the dead. So again, why would this be outrageous? You don't hide things when you have nothing to hide. You also have a government that keeps changing its story on this war. So, what's up with that?

In the realm of possibilities, this could very well be true.

Simon, your a lot better when your objective.
I've already looked into it and found it quite wanting. It is, technically possible, but highly, highly improbable.

You can trust me or not. That's your business. I'll share my sources at some point when I get done w/ more interesting things.
 

Simon W. Moon

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ILikeDubyah said:
How about finding a non-partisan source that backs up what the leftist website says?
I'm not sure if you care, but it's not a leftist website.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Chew on this for now:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001013511

Ted Rall has offered a "retraction" of his Aug. 4 cartoon that cited a 9,000 figure -- rather than the commonly used 1,800-plus -- for the number of American soldiers who have died in the Iraq war.

On Tuesday, Rall wrote in his blog: "I read a story that came off as possible, sourced it using previously reliable informants, and ended up doing a cartoon that I wouldn't have done had I known then what I know now. So this is a retraction of [the] cartoon. Did 9,000-plus soldiers get killed in Iraq? Maybe, maybe not. But as a cartoonist friend of mine points out: The relatives of those hidden 7,000 dead troops sure would be raising hell if the Pentagon were trying to hide them. ... The battery in my BS detector must have been running low last week."
 

ILikeDubyah

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Simon W. Moon said:
I'm not sure if you care, but it's not a leftist website.

Did you read the "about us" section of the site? I would think if you've ever been referred to as a "Commie" you're probably somewhere VERY left of the middle.
 

Simon W. Moon

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ILikeDubyah said:
Did you read the "about us" section of the site? I would think if you've ever been referred to as a "Commie" you're probably somewhere VERY left of the middle.
ILikeDubyah's a commmie.

Now you are "somewhere VERY left of the middle?"
 

cnredd

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Simon W. Moon said:
I'm not sure if you care, but it's not a leftist website.
I don't know about "leftist", but "objective" is far from being used....

Check out the front page...in the center...

Bush-Blair-Sharon: L’ Axe du Mal...(Axis of Evil in French)...

No slants on this site, eh? Sure has no problem towing the "leftist" line....
 

Billo_Really

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The source of the story is not the issue. It is, "Are there 9000 dead?" I certainly do not know for sure. But I'm definately not going to get distracted by trying to change the subject to the source of the story.

I will just say I'm more inclinded to believe it for now. Not because of any political affiliations. But because of the track record of lies, dis-information, changes in goals and misleading statements coming out of Washington to date, that has made me very leary of what they say is the truth.
 

cnredd

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Billo_Really said:
The source of the story is not the issue. It is, "Are there 9000 dead?" I certainly do not know for sure. But I'm definately not going to get distracted by trying to change the subject to the source of the story.

I will just say I'm more inclinded to believe it for now. Not because of any political affiliations. But because of the track record of lies, dis-information, changes in goals and misleading statements coming out of Washington to date, that has made me very leary of what they say is the truth.
If you do not "know for sure", then why on EARTH did you post it? Why would ANYONE, let alone someone who's been here as long as you have, want to post something that isn't confirmed or can't be objectively considered reliable?

Its a poison to "actual debate"....
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by cnredd:
If you do not "know for sure", then why on EARTH did you post it? Why would ANYONE, let alone someone who's been here as long as you have, want to post something that isn't confirmed or can't be objectively considered reliable?

Its a poison to "actual debate"....
There are many posts that cannot be confirmed. Why do you say, "...this can't be objectively considered reliable?" Do you have a source litmus test to offer?

More importantly is why did you put my post in quotes and included it with yours when you are obviously responding to something I wasn't saying?
 

cnredd

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Billo_Really said:
There are many posts that cannot be confirmed. Why do you say, "...this can't be objectively considered reliable?" Do you have a source litmus test to offer?

More importantly is why did you put my post in quotes and included it with yours when you are obviously responding to something I wasn't saying?
You weren't obviously saying this?
Billo_Really said:
The source of the story is not the issue. It is, "Are there 9000 dead?" I certainly do not know for sure. But I'm definately not going to get distracted by trying to change the subject to the source of the story.

I will just say I'm more inclinded to believe it for now. Not because of any political affiliations. But because of the track record of lies, dis-information, changes in goals and misleading statements coming out of Washington to date, that has made me very leary of what they say is the truth.
Yes there are many posts that can't be confirmed....but most of them are POSTS, not THREADSTARTERS....If everyone put out threads with unsubstantiated facts on anything they feel like, how many threads would we have? 10,000?...20,000?...tons more?

It dilutes the forum...i.e...poison.

I'd expect someone with your length of time here to know better...Maybe I shouldn't have raised my bar so high....
 
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