17 Dead because of liberal media bias

[shuamort]

The media has never been challenged as they are today. They are operating as usual, and getting caught every time.

You are quite right there. The internet can really be thanked for that.

 

[Hoot]

I think Newsweek and President Bush should both appear on the same stage and both apologize for lying to the American people.

Then I'd be satisfied.

Personally, I have no doubt the incident happened...(the Koran being flushed down the toilet.)

This was reported back in January by the Philadelphia Inquirer.

It's just a book..ok? If a radical Muslim flushes the Bible down the toilet, is this going to threaten my own religious beliefs? Of course not.

Is it going to make me go out and kill 17 people? Of course not.

The trouble in Afghanistan stems from political upheaval and the quest for power in that government....not from a book being flushed down the toliet.

I don't believe the Newsweek article had anything to do with those 17 deaths.

There's also a report that one of the detainees (prisoners) at Abu Grahib flushed pages of the Koran down the toilet to flood the cell block. I'm sure the prisoner could justify this action if he believed using the Koran in this way was for a holy purpose.

What it boils down to is, who cares? Newsweek had nothing to do with those 17 deaths, and those of you who scream liberal bias are brainwashed.

I'm sure some of you would love to see Newsweek reveal it's source for this story?

Why don't you just kick the First Amendment to the curb while you're at it?

 

[shuamort]

It's just a book..ok? If a radical Muslim flushes the Bible down the toilet, is this going to threaten my own religious beliefs? Of course not.

The Koran is much more than a book. Some Muslims will not ever touch a Koran that is in a different language than arabic because that is the language of Allah. No one should ever touch the Koran while in a state of impurity. You may never casually read the Koran in fact you must get in the proper position when reading it. There is a large amount of reverence towards the Koran. Desecration, or flushing as it were, is a crime against the religion according to Sharia law and is punishable by death.

Now, I must say I've never attempted to flush a book down a toilet, but like smashing a coke bottle over someone's head, I'd say it's probably pretty difficult.

 

[akyron]

What it boils down to is, who cares? QUOTE]


Probably the peoples families who died in the incident.

I agree with you about the book in the toilet thing. It is just a book and you can get another for $2.54 Did they flush the first Koran down toilet or something?


I realize it is not about the book but the act itself that lends force to an explosive powder keg of religious fanaticism. The zealots themselves caused the deaths in actuality but Newsweek cannot deny they were culpable by tossing matches at a potentially explosive situation. They got exactly what they wanted. More news to sell.

 

[shuamort]

I agree with you about the book in the toilet thing. It is just a book and you can get another for $2.54 Did they flush the first Koran down toilet or something?

I reckon you must not have read my post above. Please re-read. Moreover, by your statement I'm assuming you don't have any problem with anyone burning the American Flag since you can buy one for $2.55.

I realize it is not about the book but the act itself that lends force to an explosive powder keg of religious fanaticism. The zealots themselves caused the deaths in actuality but Newsweek cannot deny they were culpable by tossing matches at a potentially explosive situation. They got exactly what they wanted. More news to sell.

The problem is... as it turns out, Newsweek wasn't alone in this:

August 5, 2004

The Independent (London)

In the report, released in New York, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and Shafiq Rasul - the so-called Tipton Three - said one inmate was threatened after being shown a video in which hooded inmates were forced to sodomise each other. Guards allegedly threw prisoners' Korans into toilets, while others were injected with drugs, it was claimed.


August 5, 2004

Daily News (New York) | Byline: By James Gordon Meek and Derek Rose.
They say that rats and scorpions had free run of their sweltering cages, loud rock music was used to drown out the sound of prayers, and sleep deprivation was common.

"They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it," Asif Iqbal wrote.

[...]

Pentagon spokesman Michael Shavers said the military "operates a professional detention facility at Guantanamo" and does not condone abuse of detainees.


January 9, 2005

Sunday | FINAL EDITION | HEADLINE: Nightmare of Guantanamo.... U.S. prison camp in Cuba has become legal black hole, reporter says BYLINE: John Freeman Special to The Denver Post

"They pepper sprayed me in the face, and I started vomiting; in all I must have brought up five cupfuls. They pinned me down and attacked me, poking their fingers in my eyes, and forced my head into the toilet pan and flushed. They tied me up like a beast and then they were kneeling on me, kicking and punching. Finally they dragged me out of my cell in chains ... and shaved my beard, my hair, my eyebrows."

[...]

And earlier this year, that process finally began. In March, the government released five British men from Guantanamo after nearly three years. They had been captured in Afghanistan, where they had gone to offer humanitarian aid. Rose interviewed them that same month, two months before the allegations of Abu Ghraib first surfaced, and yet they described a period of captivity eerily similar to that of the Iraqis in Abu Ghraib.

In August Mr Ahmed, Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal issued a 115-page dossier accusing the US of abuse, including allegations that they were beaten and had their Korans thrown into toilets.*



(*Also published in The Hartford Courant (Connecticut), January 16, 2005.)


January 9, 2003

The New York Times | Late Edition - Final | SECTION: Section A; Column 2; Foreign Desk; Pg. 14 | THREATS AND RESPONSES: TERROR; Hate of the West Finds Fertile Soil in Yemen. But Does Al Qaeda? By Ian Fisher | DATELINE: SANA, Yemen, Jan. 8

Investigators know the basic facts: In this poor and isolated nation with no lack of extremists, a young preacher named Ahmed Ali Jarallah assembled a small cell of militants to strike the enemies of Islam in Yemen. Two years ago, he read off a hate list in a speech at a mosque here, singling out specifically a hospital run by American Baptists.

"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."

On Dec. 28, anger went into action: Mr. Jarallah himself assassinated a leading secular politician, Jarallah Omar, according to the police. Two days later, one of Mr. Jarallah's followers, Abed Abdel Razzak Kamel, is said to have killed three Americans in the hospital, which provided medical care in the southern town of Jibla for 35 years.


March 26, 2003

The Washington Post | Final Edition | SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A12 HEADLINE: Returning Afghans Talk of Guantanamo; Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment | BYLINE: Marc Kaufman and April Witt, Washington Post Staff Writers

The men, the largest single group of Afghans to be released after months of detainment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave varying accounts of how American forces treated them during interrogation and detainment. Some displayed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them.

[...]

Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet.

 

[akyron]

I reckon you must not have read my post above. Please re-read. Moreover, by your statement I'm assuming you don't have any problem with anyone burning the American Flag since you can buy one for $2.55.

Well I certainly would not kill myself or others over it so you assume correctly.

The problem is... as it turns out, Newsweek wasn't alone in this:

August 5, 2004

The Independent (London)

In the report, released in New York, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and Shafiq Rasul - the so-called Tipton Three - said one inmate was threatened after being shown a video in which hooded inmates were forced to sodomise each other. Guards allegedly threw prisoners' Korans into toilets, while others were injected with drugs, it was claimed.


August 5, 2004

Daily News (New York) | Byline: By James Gordon Meek and Derek Rose.
They say that rats and scorpions had free run of their sweltering cages, loud rock music was used to drown out the sound of prayers, and sleep deprivation was common.

"They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it," Asif Iqbal wrote.

[...]

Pentagon spokesman Michael Shavers said the military "operates a professional detention facility at Guantanamo" and does not condone abuse of detainees.


January 9, 2005

Sunday | FINAL EDITION | HEADLINE: Nightmare of Guantanamo.... U.S. prison camp in Cuba has become legal black hole, reporter says BYLINE: John Freeman Special to The Denver Post

"They pepper sprayed me in the face, and I started vomiting; in all I must have brought up five cupfuls. They pinned me down and attacked me, poking their fingers in my eyes, and forced my head into the toilet pan and flushed. They tied me up like a beast and then they were kneeling on me, kicking and punching. Finally they dragged me out of my cell in chains ... and shaved my beard, my hair, my eyebrows."

[...]

And earlier this year, that process finally began. In March, the government released five British men from Guantanamo after nearly three years. They had been captured in Afghanistan, where they had gone to offer humanitarian aid. Rose interviewed them that same month, two months before the allegations of Abu Ghraib first surfaced, and yet they described a period of captivity eerily similar to that of the Iraqis in Abu Ghraib.

In August Mr Ahmed, Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal issued a 115-page dossier accusing the US of abuse, including allegations that they were beaten and had their Korans thrown into toilets.*



(*Also published in The Hartford Courant (Connecticut), January 16, 2005.)


January 9, 2003

The New York Times | Late Edition - Final | SECTION: Section A; Column 2; Foreign Desk; Pg. 14 | THREATS AND RESPONSES: TERROR; Hate of the West Finds Fertile Soil in Yemen. But Does Al Qaeda? By Ian Fisher | DATELINE: SANA, Yemen, Jan. 8

Investigators know the basic facts: In this poor and isolated nation with no lack of extremists, a young preacher named Ahmed Ali Jarallah assembled a small cell of militants to strike the enemies of Islam in Yemen. Two years ago, he read off a hate list in a speech at a mosque here, singling out specifically a hospital run by American Baptists.

"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."

On Dec. 28, anger went into action: Mr. Jarallah himself assassinated a leading secular politician, Jarallah Omar, according to the police. Two days later, one of Mr. Jarallah's followers, Abed Abdel Razzak Kamel, is said to have killed three Americans in the hospital, which provided medical care in the southern town of Jibla for 35 years.


March 26, 2003

The Washington Post | Final Edition | SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A12 HEADLINE: Returning Afghans Talk of Guantanamo; Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment | BYLINE: Marc Kaufman and April Witt, Washington Post Staff Writers

The men, the largest single group of Afghans to be released after months of detainment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave varying accounts of how American forces treated them during interrogation and detainment. Some displayed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them.

[...]

Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet.

Sure. Angry terrorists caught in the battlefield have complaints. What better way to get back at the US? Of any of this only the medical care is recorded.
Damn them for treating me with medical care! Allah be praised!

Everything else is so and so says.We all know how much that is worth.
This is much safer than strapping a live bomb to your ass and jumping onto a bus full of kids. More efffective as well since the liberal media is so accomodating.
Even if it were all 100% true were any of them beheaded?
Flushing toilets>Your son seeing a video of you beheaded by terrorists while you beg for your life.

 

[shuamort]

Sure. Angry terrorists caught in the battlefield have complaints. What better way to get back at the US? Of any of this only the medical care is recorded.
Damn them for treating me with medical care! Allah be praised!

Terrorists? Are you seriously that unaware? We're talking about people who fought against a foreign nation's that was invading their country. Of course, WE're not even sure about that since NONE of them have never even had a trial and most haven't even been charged with a crime. Presumed guilty.

Everything else is so and so says.We all know how much that is worth.

In other words, a lot of evidence is presented and you can't refute it. Ok.

This is much safer than strapping a live bomb to your ass and jumping onto a bus full of kids. More efffective as well since the liberal media is so accomodating.

What are you talking about?

Even if it were all 100% true were any of them beheaded?
Flushing toilets>Your son seeing a video of you beheaded by terrorists while you beg for your life.

Oh, you mean what Al Qaeda did? Can you please let us know how mean G-Bay prisoners are AQ? That'd be great since that's what you're implying they are by your statement.

 

[RightinNYC]

I reckon you must not have read my post above. Please re-read. Moreover, by your statement I'm assuming you don't have any problem with anyone burning the American Flag since you can buy one for $2.55.

The problem is... as it turns out, Newsweek wasn't alone in this:

August 5, 2004

The Independent (London)

In the report, released in New York, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and Shafiq Rasul - the so-called Tipton Three - said one inmate was threatened after being shown a video in which hooded inmates were forced to sodomise each other. Guards allegedly threw prisoners' Korans into toilets, while others were injected with drugs, it was claimed.


August 5, 2004

Daily News (New York) | Byline: By James Gordon Meek and Derek Rose.
They say that rats and scorpions had free run of their sweltering cages, loud rock music was used to drown out the sound of prayers, and sleep deprivation was common.

"They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it," Asif Iqbal wrote.

[...]

Pentagon spokesman Michael Shavers said the military "operates a professional detention facility at Guantanamo" and does not condone abuse of detainees.


January 9, 2005

Sunday | FINAL EDITION | HEADLINE: Nightmare of Guantanamo.... U.S. prison camp in Cuba has become legal black hole, reporter says BYLINE: John Freeman Special to The Denver Post

"They pepper sprayed me in the face, and I started vomiting; in all I must have brought up five cupfuls. They pinned me down and attacked me, poking their fingers in my eyes, and forced my head into the toilet pan and flushed. They tied me up like a beast and then they were kneeling on me, kicking and punching. Finally they dragged me out of my cell in chains ... and shaved my beard, my hair, my eyebrows."

[...]

And earlier this year, that process finally began. In March, the government released five British men from Guantanamo after nearly three years. They had been captured in Afghanistan, where they had gone to offer humanitarian aid. Rose interviewed them that same month, two months before the allegations of Abu Ghraib first surfaced, and yet they described a period of captivity eerily similar to that of the Iraqis in Abu Ghraib.

In August Mr Ahmed, Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal issued a 115-page dossier accusing the US of abuse, including allegations that they were beaten and had their Korans thrown into toilets.*



(*Also published in The Hartford Courant (Connecticut), January 16, 2005.)


January 9, 2003

The New York Times | Late Edition - Final | SECTION: Section A; Column 2; Foreign Desk; Pg. 14 | THREATS AND RESPONSES: TERROR; Hate of the West Finds Fertile Soil in Yemen. But Does Al Qaeda? By Ian Fisher | DATELINE: SANA, Yemen, Jan. 8

Investigators know the basic facts: In this poor and isolated nation with no lack of extremists, a young preacher named Ahmed Ali Jarallah assembled a small cell of militants to strike the enemies of Islam in Yemen. Two years ago, he read off a hate list in a speech at a mosque here, singling out specifically a hospital run by American Baptists.

"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."

On Dec. 28, anger went into action: Mr. Jarallah himself assassinated a leading secular politician, Jarallah Omar, according to the police. Two days later, one of Mr. Jarallah's followers, Abed Abdel Razzak Kamel, is said to have killed three Americans in the hospital, which provided medical care in the southern town of Jibla for 35 years.


March 26, 2003

The Washington Post | Final Edition | SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A12 HEADLINE: Returning Afghans Talk of Guantanamo; Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment | BYLINE: Marc Kaufman and April Witt, Washington Post Staff Writers

The men, the largest single group of Afghans to be released after months of detainment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave varying accounts of how American forces treated them during interrogation and detainment. Some displayed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them.

[...]

Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet.

The difference is that those places reported that these allegations were being made by biased parties, whereas Newsweek claimed they were government verified facts.

If the Swift Boat Vets claim Kerry is a traitor, that's one thing. If NBC were to then come out with a special report citing verified government proof that Kerry was a traitor, and that proof turned out to be wrong, that would be an entirely different thing. I bet we'd be hearing a lot of complaint from the other side about media bias in a situation like that.

 

[shuamort]

The difference is that those places reported that these allegations were being made by biased parties, whereas Newsweek claimed they were government verified facts.

Asif Iqbal is an allegation made by a biased party? Take some time a do a little research about his detainment:

http://www.thisisrumorcontrol.org/node/347
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3089395.stm
http://japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=337295
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6058

Calling him and his allegation a biased party is like calling a rape victim recounting the events a "biased party".

 

[RightinNYC]

Asif Iqbal is an allegation made by a biased party? Take some time a do a little research about his detainment:

http://www.thisisrumorcontrol.org/node/347
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3089395.stm
http://japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=337295
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=6058

Calling him and his allegation a biased party is like calling a rape victim recounting the events a "biased party".

Did you read any of the articles you cited to me? Of the four, not only does none of them provide any evidence that Iqbal was innocent, but none of them provide any other facts either, aside from allegations made by parties with obvious agendas.

Whether or not Iqbal WAS innocent does not change the fact that he has a clear agenda and desire to see the US be made to look evil.

The whole point of this is that even if these allegations were made, reporting them as true was irresponsible and likely grounds for legal recourse.

 

[shuamort]

Did you read any of the articles you cited to me? Of the four, not only does none of them provide any evidence that Iqbal was innocent, but none of them provide any other facts either, aside from allegations made by parties with obvious agendas.

Here's one that notes Iqbal's innocent:
http://www.guantanamohrc.org/pdf/appeal_3.pdf

Whether or not Iqbal WAS innocent does not change the fact that he has a clear agenda and desire to see the US be made to look evil.

Evil? What are we three years old? Who uses terms like that? It looks to me like he was held without being charged in Guatanamo Bay, eventually his captors found out that he was a UK citizen, and later released him. During his capture, he saw things which he's relayed. How that's evil is beyond me.

The whole point of this is that even if these allegations were made, reporting them as true was irresponsible and likely grounds for legal recourse.

Legal recourse? Well, anything can have grounds for legal recourse, but as was shown in a lawsuit in Florida when a Fox News report decided to insist a report lie about facts, the media has no onus to the truth in a legal manner. Of course, the preponderence of the evidence that's coming out is buttressing Newsweek's claim.

 

[ShamMol]

Legal recourse? Well, anything can have grounds for legal recourse, but as was shown in a lawsuit in Florida when a Fox News report decided to insist a report lie about facts, the media has no onus to the truth in a legal manner. Of course, the preponderence of the evidence that's coming out is buttressing Newsweek's claim.

They will likely face a class action law suit filed by lawyers on the behalf of those families that lost love ones "as a result" (even though I don't think that) of the action taken by Newsweek. Likely, they will lose and be forced to pay massive amounts of damages, and on top of that, their subscriptions and viewship are likely to go down.

 

[akyron]

Terrorists? Are you seriously that unaware? We're talking about people who fought against a foreign nation's that was invading their country. Of course, WE're not even sure about that since NONE of them have never even had a trial and most haven't even been charged with a crime. Presumed guilty.

BBC
-he had stated that he would follow any religious decree; that an attack on the US was necessary; that infidels should either convert to Islam, or pay a fee, or be killed.
-More than 60 of these boards have now taken place.
Are you ready to pay your islamic tax? I am not.
Yes most of them were idly vacationing on a battlefield in a war torn country. They must have good antiquing there or something. :roll:

In other words, a lot of evidence is presented and you can't refute it. Ok.
You are not doing much to prove it either. Neither is anyone else. Talk is cheap.


What are you talking about?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/18/world/main568894.shtml
Taliban blamed as Afghan bus bomb kills 15
Bus bomb kills 17
in southern Afghanistan
Roadside Bomb Rips Through Crowded Bus in Afghanistan
Bomb explodes in Afghanistan mosque; 16 wounded


Oh, you mean what Al Qaeda did? Can you please let us know how mean G-Bay prisoners are AQ? That'd be great since that's what you're implying they are by your statement.

No. Afghans can bomb as well as anyone. They were trained by the ISI and Maktab al Khidamar (MAK). They do not have to be AQ. Taliban were not AQ. They were just good buddies in extremist religion together. The family that prays together kills together.

Terrorist Activities Perpetrated by “Eastern Turkistan” Organizations and Their Links with Osama bin Laden and the Taliban

 

[akyron]

They will likely face a class action law suit filed by lawyers on the behalf of those families that lost love ones "as a result" (even though I don't think that) of the action taken by Newsweek. Likely, they will lose and be forced to pay massive amounts of damages, and on top of that, their subscriptions and viewship are likely to go down.

I bet they will settle out of court. It will be cheaper in the long run.

 

[RightinNYC]

Here's one that notes Iqbal's innocent:
http://www.guantanamohrc.org/pdf/appeal_3.pdf

Do you read ANY of the sources you cite? Nowhere in there did it offer any evidence of anything, instead choosing to state one person's opinion that by default, PM Blair must have known that Iqbal was innocent.

Evil? What are we three years old? Who uses terms like that? It looks to me like he was held without being charged in Guatanamo Bay, eventually his captors found out that he was a UK citizen, and later released him. During his capture, he saw things which he's relayed. How that's evil is beyond me.

Again, did you even read what I said? I didn't say he was evil, I said that it was in his interest to make the US look as bad as possible. I'm sorry for using a qualifier that made it impossible for you to actually respond to the point I made.

Legal recourse? Well, anything can have grounds for legal recourse, but as was shown in a lawsuit in Florida when a Fox News report decided to insist a report lie about facts, the media has no onus to the truth in a legal manner. Of course, the preponderence of the evidence that's coming out is buttressing Newsweek's claim.

Okay, but in this instance, they have a case. Newsweek, through its ineptitude, created an atmosphere in which 17 people were killed. Lots of people in the legal profession seem to think this is a solid case.

 

[akyron]

Okay, but in this instance, they have a case. Newsweek, through its ineptitude, created an atmosphere in which 17 people were killed. Lots of people in the legal profession seem to think this is a solid case.

Was it really ineptitude or just a desire to stir things up a bit more in an effort to sell more magazines?



National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley said in an interview for CNN's "Late Edition" that the allegations were being investigated "vigorously."

"If it turns out to be true, obviously we will take action against those responsible," he said.

--Like what?

What are the charges officer? Err Flushing paper down the toilet.
Son step away from the commode and spread em!

 

[shuamort]

Do you read ANY of the sources you cite? Nowhere in there did it offer any evidence of anything, instead choosing to state one person's opinion that by default, PM Blair must have known that Iqbal was innocent.

Of course, to be called innnocent (or guilty for that matter), one would have to have a trial to becalled that. Since no trials happened or even charges named, no pronouncement of guilt or innocence can be officially called. It's the proponderence of evidence that the US botched this up by arrested Asif Iqbal (and the other four Britons) and subsequently released them. Would they have released guilty people? No.
A priori rationale shows that.

Again, did you even read what I said? I didn't say he was evil, I said that it was in his interest to make the US look as bad as possible. I'm sorry for using a qualifier that made it impossible for you to actually respond to the point I made.

Your inferences are meritless. What interest was it for him? He actually sent a letter to Bush while at G-Bay complaining about the abuses of human rights.

Okay, but in this instance, they have a case. Newsweek, through its ineptitude, created an atmosphere in which 17 people were killed. Lots of people in the legal profession seem to think this is a solid case.

Argumentum ad populum? Ugh. Maybe we should find out if the claims are true or not before deciding ineptitude, eh? As I've said before, the preponderence of evidence that is being dug up like truffles is changing the wind's direction.

 

[Hoot]

Okay, but in this instance, they have a case. Newsweek, through its ineptitude, created an atmosphere in which 17 people were killed. Lots of people in the legal profession seem to think this is a solid case.

You've already seen evidence of how the Koran was reportedly flushed in the past....how is Newsweek responsible for these 17 deaths?

There's no case...any competent judge would throw this out of court.

Now we have Rice commenting on the Newsweek article as though Newsweek is responsible for the unrest and death.

What a joke. She's only trying to make points for the Bush administration.

You had Condeleeza Rice saying on 'Late Edition,' Sept 8th, 2002, that the aluminum tubes "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

This was a deliberate lie to the American people since the Bush administration had evidence that the tubes were never meant for nuclear centrifuges.

I think your paragraph above would make more sense in court with a slight re-wording......

" ok, but in this instance, they have a case. 'Bush' through his ineptude created an atmosphere in which 'many' people were killed."

Now there's a case people in the legal profession should jump on.

 

[RightinNYC]

Of course, to be called innnocent (or guilty for that matter), one would have to have a trial to becalled that. Since no trials happened or even charges named, no pronouncement of guilt or innocence can be officially called. It's the proponderence of evidence that the US botched this up by arrested Asif Iqbal (and the other four Britons) and subsequently released them. Would they have released guilty people? No.
A priori rationale shows that.

Thus proving my point. If you can't prove he was innocent, and I can't prove he was guilty, then it's a bit foolish for you to claim that he was innocent simply because he was released. People who are guilty of various things are released all the time, for many reasons.

Your inferences are meritless. What interest was it for him? He actually sent a letter to Bush while at G-Bay complaining about the abuses of human rights.

Really, my inferences are meritless? It would be totally outrageous to suspect that someone who, fairly or not, suffered incarceration at the hands of the US, would have an interest in making that policy seem as bad as possible? If you can't see that you're being ignorant or obstinant.

Argumentum ad populum? Ugh. Maybe we should find out if the claims are true or not before deciding ineptitude, eh? As I've said before, the preponderence of evidence that is being dug up like truffles is changing the wind's direction.

Actually, you're completely wrong. Firstly, evidence is springing up that is disproving those claims, not the other way around. There have been numerous investigations which have shown that this didn't happen. Forgive me if I take the word of independent investigators over a few people who may or may not have terrorist ties, but who definately, under any logical view, have a motive to make the US look bad.

Secondly, the issue is not even whether or not it happened. The issue is that Newsweek reported that a government report said it did, which was a bald-faced lie. That is where the culpability comes from.

 

[RightinNYC]

You've already seen evidence of how the Koran was reportedly flushed in the past....how is Newsweek responsible for these 17 deaths?

There's no case...any competent judge would throw this out of court.

Well, I'm sure your legal credentials are impeccable, but forgive me for doubting your opinion on this matter.

Now we have Rice commenting on the Newsweek article as though Newsweek is responsible for the unrest and death.

Well, maybe that's because they are partly to blame....

What a joke. She's only trying to make points for the Bush administration.

You had Condeleeza Rice saying on 'Late Edition,' Sept 8th, 2002, that the aluminum tubes "are only really suited for nuclear weapons programs, centrifuge programs."

This was a deliberate lie to the American people since the Bush administration had evidence that the tubes were never meant for nuclear centrifuges.

I think your paragraph above would make more sense in court with a slight re-wording......

" ok, but in this instance, they have a case. 'Bush' through his ineptude created an atmosphere in which 'many' people were killed."

Now there's a case people in the legal profession should jump on.

....okay....

 

[shuamort]

Thus proving my point. If you can't prove he was innocent, and I can't prove he was guilty, then it's a bit foolish for you to claim that he was innocent simply because he was released. People who are guilty of various things are released all the time, for many reasons.

Fair enough.

Really, my inferences are meritless? It would be totally outrageous to suspect that someone who, fairly or not, suffered incarceration at the hands of the US, would have an interest in making that policy seem as bad as possible? If you can't see that you're being ignorant or obstinant.

OK, you're changing your story now. First it was making the US look evil. Now it's the policy of the G-Bay internment camp looking bad. He might be purposefully attempting to make the camp look bad because his experiences (according to him) were bad. If I were to be imprisoned for a crime I didn't commit, a crime I wasn't charged with, by a country where I wasn't in in the first place, then have my religion degraded, my rights taken away, be forced to sleep in a wire mesh cell with scorpions having free reign, music blasted so I couldn't worship, etc, etc... I think I might want it to look bad when I got out. I would make sure that I would be screaming from the rooftops at the injustices I had just incurred foremost. Which is what Iqbal is doing.

Actually, you're completely wrong. Firstly, evidence is springing up that is disproving those claims, not the other way around. There have been numerous investigations which have shown that this didn't happen. Forgive me if I take the word of independent investigators over a few people who may or may not have terrorist ties, but who definately, under any logical view, have a motive to make the US look bad.

Care to cite some of what you're saying?

Secondly, the issue is not even whether or not it happened. The issue is that Newsweek reported that a government report said it did, which was a bald-faced lie. That is where the culpability comes from.

From the OP's source:
In an accompanying article, the magazine wrote that its reporters had relied on an American government official, whom it has not identified, who had incomplete knowledge of the situation.

It said that American military investigators had found evidence in an internal report that during the interrogation of detainees, American guards had flushed a Koran down a toilet as a way of trying to provoke the detainees into talking.

Pentagon officials said that no such information was included in the internal report and responded to Newsweek's apology with unusual anger.

I'm going to sit on this until more facts start to surface as they usually do.

 

[RightinNYC]

OK, you're changing your story now. First it was making the US look evil. Now it's the policy of the G-Bay internment camp looking bad. He might be purposefully attempting to make the camp look bad because his experiences (according to him) were bad. If I were to be imprisoned for a crime I didn't commit, a crime I wasn't charged with, by a country where I wasn't in in the first place, then have my religion degraded, my rights taken away, be forced to sleep in a wire mesh cell with scorpions having free reign, music blasted so I couldn't worship, etc, etc... I think I might want it to look bad when I got out. I would make sure that I would be screaming from the rooftops at the injustices I had just incurred foremost. Which is what Iqbal is doing.

That's my point. My story hasn't changed at all. He's saying what he's saying in an attempt to make the US/Guantanamo/Whatever you want to call it look bad/evil/inhumane/whatever you want to call it. Whether or not he's justified in saying what he'sa saying, the fact remains that he has a motivation to say what he's saying, and he has a vested interest in making his claims as bad as possible, as do every single other one of the people who are complaining about the treatment. Thus, his and their testimony is biased, like I claimed 5 posts ago and you argued with me over.

Care to cite some of what you're saying?

From the OP's source:
In an accompanying article, the magazine wrote that its reporters had relied on an American government official, whom it has not identified, who had incomplete knowledge of the situation.

It said that American military investigators had found evidence in an internal report that during the interrogation of detainees, American guards had flushed a Koran down a toilet as a way of trying to provoke the detainees into talking.

Pentagon officials said that no such information was included in the internal report and responded to Newsweek's apology with unusual anger.

I'm going to sit on this until more facts start to surface as they usually do.

From the washpost:

"There had been previous reports about the Koran being defiled, but they always seemed to be rumors or allegations made by sources without evidence," Whitaker said, referring to reporting by British and Russian news agencies and by the Qatar-based satellite network al-Jazeera. The Washington Post, whose parent company owns Newsweek, reported a similar account in March 2003, attributing it to a group of former detainees. "The fact that a knowledgeable source within the U.S. government was telling us the government itself had knowledge of this was newsworthy," Whitaker said in an interview.

He said that a senior Pentagon official, for reasons that "are still a little mysterious to us," had declined to comment after Newsweek correspondent John Barry showed him a draft before the item was published and asked, "Is this accurate or not?" Whitaker added that the magazine would have held off had military spokesmen made such a request. That official "lacked detailed knowledge" of the investigative report, Newsweek now says.[/QUOTE]

The 10-sentence item said an upcoming report by the U.S. Southern Command in Miami was "expected" to include the alleged Koran incident -- the subject of only one sentence -- among various abusive techniques used "to rattle suspects" at Guantanamo. Since then, Pentagon officials and Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, have said investigators found "no credible allegations of willful Koran desecration," as Whitman put it.

Said Whitaker: "I suppose you could say we should have foreseen the consequences of the report, but we didn't."

So here's what happened:

There were rumors that this had happened, and Newsweek got word that an upcoming report would say that it had in fact happened. They showed their article to a pentagon official, who DID NOT COMMENT, and then Newsweek published that article, citing him as a source saying it was true, simply because he did not say it was false. That is incredibly deceitful, and goes far beyond a journalistic ethics violation.

Now, the official report has said that such an event did NOT happen, contrary to your theory that it did occur, and Newsweek has retracted its statement.

And that last statement by Whitaker looks a lot like an admission of guilt to me, just like this one:

"We certainly accept some responsibility" - Whitaker

 

[shuamort]

So here's what happened:

There were rumors that this had happened, and Newsweek got word that an upcoming report would say that it had in fact happened. They showed their article to a pentagon official, who DID NOT COMMENT, and then Newsweek published that article, citing him as a source saying it was true, simply because he did not say it was false. That is incredibly deceitful, and goes far beyond a journalistic ethics violation.

Actually, Newsweek contacted two people at the Pentagon and one DID NOT COMMENT and the other addressed a separate issue but not the one at hand here. The third person, the anonymous one, is where the charges originate from and that person was not with the pentagon.

 

[RightinNYC]

Actually, Newsweek contacted two people at the Pentagon and one DID NOT COMMENT and the other addressed a separate issue but not the one at hand here. The third person, the anonymous one, is where the charges originate from and that person was not with the pentagon.

Okay. If that's the case, it means that NW didn't deliberately misrepresent what the Pentagon official said, it just means they published a false accusation even after failing to confirm it with any other sources.

 

[ShamMol]

He's saying what he's saying in an attempt to make the US/Guantanamo/Whatever you want to call it look bad/evil/inhumane/whatever you want to call it.

I'm sorry to intervene in this debate, but how is Gitmo not evil? We give them "trials" where guilt is presumed (aka military court) and lawyer's whos conversations are likely monitored (violation of rights for an American citizen). Just because they aren't Americans, we don't afford them the same rights that we would want ourselves?