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150 Irish artists announce Israel cultural boycott

Where did I say that the standard is that of a "Western country"?
The standard is that homosexuals will be treated the best, and that standard is not of a specific country or culture, but merely of the value of equality that should be promoted in all countries.
You connect the term "Western" with higher values merely because Western countries are those who mainly promote such standards, but you cannot argue that those are the good standards while the Iranian execution of homosexual citizens is not.

What brought Iran into the equasion ? We're talking about Lebanon here. You are unable to say, considering the circumstances in Lebanon, it's not doing that bad at all and you're not acknoledging the fact that the Lebanese society has always been very open-minded and tolerent.

Is it a perfectly tolerent country as far as the law goes ? no it's not Many laws need to be changed but some are more of a priority than others. The Capital punishment is still applicable in Lebanon, women still cannot transfer the Lebanese nationality to a child etc.. etc...

Did you know that by French law, women are not allowed to wear trousers ? They do anyway and the law still hasn't changed.

In Lebanon "unusual sex" is against the law, but gays, Lesbians and transexuals are accepted by the society.
 
What figures? I didn't post any figures.

I just don't think that the amount of people who are fleeing Lebanon and seeking asylum in the Western world is big enough to be considered a "mass exodus".
I've heard of many cases on that issue, but not enough that would make me claim there is a "mass exodus" of homosexuals from the Lebanese country.

You said Lebanese gays are immigrating to Western countries ? how do you know that they are ? are there any figures ?
 
Be that as it may, she could probably purchase Lebanon :2razz:


Do you measure everything with money ?

Does talent count at all ?
 
What brought Iran into the equasion ? We're talking about Lebanon here. You are unable to say, considering the circumstances in Lebanon, it's not doing that bad at all and you're not acknoledging the fact that the Lebanese society has always been very open-minded and tolerent.

Is it a perfectly tolerent country as far as the law goes ? no it's not Many laws need to be changed but some are more of a priority than others. The Capital punishment is still applicable in Lebanon, women still cannot transfer the Lebanese nationality to a child etc.. etc...

Did you know that by French law, women are not allowed to wear trousers ? They do anyway and the law still hasn't changed.

In Lebanon "unusual sex" is against the law, but gays, Lesbians and transexuals are accepted by the society.

You were saying that I only promote the Western standards saying that this is an imperialist attitude, however I was explaining that the Western standards you are referring to - equaliy, freedoms, etc. are indeed the standards that are seen as the "good standards" while the standards of countries like Iran, Egypt, China, Libya, etc. are standards that are mainly seen as "bad standards".
So yes, the closer you are to the standards of equality, freedom, etc. the higher are the standards the country is promoting.

I've acknowledged that in comparison to the rest of the Arab world, Lebanon is doing very well in its treatment to the LGBT community, however in comparison to the required standards, it is still far from being there - but it's getting closer.
 
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You said Lebanese gays are immigrating to Western countries ? how do you know that they are ? are there any figures ?

I don't know any figures, I said that I've heard of many cases.
It's not easy to find it through google, but I did find some cases:

FOXNews.com - More Immigrants Seek Asylum Over Sexual Orientation

In Worcester, for example, Cunningham has helped a Lebanese and three others Jamaicans win asylum with the legal help provided by the Lutheran Social Services' "LGBT Human Rights Protection Project."

LGBT rights in Lebanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also in 2005, a group of Lebanese gay men fled to the Netherlands, seeking asylum. They argued that, because homosexuality is a crime in Lebanon, they would be treated as criminals if they returned to Lebanon. Canada has given some Lebanese homosexuals asylum.

Gays Seeking Asylum Find Familiar Prejudices in U.S.

What they often find here is isolation. A Lebanese woman who agreed to be identified only by the initial N said she got asylum after her family threatened to report her to the police in Beirut, where homosexuality is a crime.

etc etc.
 
Do you measure everything with money ?

Does talent count at all ?

I think that's more subjective, but I'm surprised to hear this, everyone has at least three Madonna songs that they really like hearing.
Sue me if you want to, but american pie, hung up, like a prayer, frozen, etc. are songs of her that I really like listening to.
 
I think that's more subjective, but I'm surprised to hear this, everyone has at least three Madonna songs that they really like hearing.
Sue me if you want to, but american pie, hung up, like a prayer, frozen, etc. are songs of her that I really like listening to.

Personally, I don't know a single song of hers and she seriously gets on my nerves so do Metallica and Paul McCartney. I used to listen to Depeche Mode in the 80-s and I still hum along with some songs when I hear them.
 
Personally, I don't know a single song of hers and she seriously gets on my nerves so do Metallica and Paul McCartney. I used to listen to Depeche Mode in the 80-s and I still hum along with some songs when I hear them.

Metallica I don't expect you to like, but Paul McCartney and Madonna?
Really? Not even one? I find that awkward, I think you're the first person I know who'd say such a thing.
 
Metallica I don't expect you to like, but Paul McCartney and Madonna?
Really? Not even one? I find that awkward, I think you're the first person I know who'd say such a thing.


Actually I can sit through a Metalica concert which I've done, but I'd kill myself if I hear more than one Madonna or Paul McCartney song.
 
I'm not a big Madonna fan, but I've always liked Live To Tell.

edit: Another one I absolutely love... La Isla Bonita. I've used that song in a few Latin Dance competitions. And another thing, the bass lines in that song are simply masterful. I tip my beret to whoever the recording bassist was.
 
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You were saying that I only promote the Western standards saying that this is an imperialist attitude, however I was explaining that the Western standards you are referring to - equaliy, freedoms, etc. are indeed the standards that are seen as the "good standards" while the standards of countries like Iran, Egypt, China, Libya, etc. are standards that are mainly seen as "bad standards".
So yes, the closer you are to the standards of equality, freedom, etc. the higher are the standards the country is promoting.

That's a discussion on its own

I've acknowledged that in comparison to the rest of the Arab world, Lebanon is doing very well in its treatment to the LGBT community, however in comparison to the required standards, it is still far from being there - but it's getting closer.

Israel sin't that close either. Proportionally to its size and number of inhabitants, quite alot of discrimination against gays is going on. Wasn't it only last year that a gay club was attacked in Tel Aviv by a gunman who killed several young poeple ?

Clashes between Orthodox Jews and gays is quite common in conservative Jerusalem.

We have our fanatics and so do you.
 
Israel sin't that close either. Proportionally to its size and number of inhabitants, quite alot of discrimination against gays is going on. Wasn't it only last year that a gay club was attacked in Tel Aviv by a gunman who killed several young poeple ?

Clashes between Orthodox Jews and gays is quite common in conservative Jerusalem.

We have our fanatics and so do you.

Yes we have our fanatics, but as far as the state goes in its treatment of homosexuals it is doing absolutely good.

For example, the LGBT community here has decided that it wants to celebrate the Gay Pride Parade in the city of Jerusalem. That has naturally brought up quite a lot of opposition and protests from the orthodox Jewish community that is centered in Jerusalem, but the state has decided in the end that it is their right to have their parade anywhere they want to, and indeed the parade was in Jerusalem and there were no bad incidents, specifically due to the high security provided by the state.
 
Yes we have our fanatics, but as far as the state goes in its treatment of homosexuals it is doing absolutely good.

For example, the LGBT community here has decided that it wants to celebrate the Gay Pride Parade in the city of Jerusalem. That has naturally brought up quite a lot of opposition and protests from the orthodox Jewish community that is centered in Jerusalem, but the state has decided in the end that it is their right to have their parade anywhere they want to, and indeed the parade was in Jerusalem and there were no bad incidents, specifically due to the high security provided by the state.

Well in Lebanon it's the opposite. The law hasn't changed (or maybe it has, I still haven't checked but know that Helem was fighting against it) but the population has always been tolerent.

I'm not saying that every single Lebanese accepts gays, but I grew up in a society without any prejudice against them. Keep in mind though that I grew up in Beirut and not in a small town or village.
 
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Well in Lebanon it's the opposite. The law hasn't changed (or maybe it has, I still haven't checked but know that Helem was fighting against it) but the population has always been tolerent.

Well that's not entirely "opposite" there, our Jewish fundamentalists are your Islamic fundamentalists, but the main bulk of the Israeli society is very tolerant of the LGBT community.
Among the people who take part in the Gay Pride Parades are also many straight males and females.
We've also sent in the past a transsexual woman to represent us in the Eurovision, and she's even won the contest of that year.

I'd say that while Lebanon has a lot of people who are tolerant towards homosexuals, there is still a way to go, especially in the field of law which is the most basic approach in tolerance.
 
Well that's not entirely "opposite" there, our Jewish fundamentalists are your Islamic fundamentalists, but the main bulk of the Israeli society is very tolerant of the LGBT community.
Among the people who take part in the Gay Pride Parades are also many straight males and females.
We've also sent in the past a transsexual woman to represent us in the Eurovision, and she's even won the contest of that year.

I'd say that while Lebanon has a lot of people who are tolerant towards homosexuals, there is still a way to go, especially in the field of law which is the most basic approach in tolerance.

I'm saying this because in Lebanon it is the Police who's being intolerant with homosexuals because of that stupid law not the Hizbollah. I'm sure that there has never been a decision by the government to ban homosexuality otherwise the gay bars would have been closed a long time ago.
It must be the work of some high rank homophobes in the police (Mulsim or Christian if that matters at all) who take advantage of the law to give some gays a hard time.

On the other hand and as far back as I can remember some famous Lebanese are gays or transvestides. A very famous radio talk show host, a TV series character (remember him from when I was little) a famous painter who had a sex change operation etc.. etc...

By the way, for how long have your religious fanatics existed ?
 
When it comes to the LGBT community Israel is one of the most progressive countries in the world. It is unfortunate such progressive ideals are not reflected in other aspects of Israeli policy.

However do they even recognize the evils of Palestine? Or do they blindly denounce Israel because they are propagated into believing that Israel abuses Palestinians and hates Palestine?

Do you recognize the propaganda spewing out of your own mouth for what it is, or do you actually think it is the "truth" that you are speaking?

I have to disagree. If you think about that thing we're not supposed to compare Israeli policies with, meaning that thing they had in Africa, this kind of reminds me of that. In both cases you see artists raising awareness and, especially in this case, legitimizing the opposition.

I do not think it is a violation of their rules to compare the opposition to apartheid to the opposition to Israeli policies. However, the action against apartheid is one of the first things I though of with regards to this activity. It wasn't effective there either. Rather it was, like I said, a result of strong internal dissent. On a little side note the ANC also engaged in terrorism and violence against civilians. Yet today the people who were involved in this and supported it are hailed around the world.

It will also help if the Palestinians adopted non-violent means of protest. They say that they tried but were met with fire. They say that the non-violent protest in Iran failed.I really believe that the Palestinians will gain more through non-violence.

Well a campaign of non-violence would really require more than just Palestinians resisting. Israel showed how far it was willing to go during the First Intifada. There needs to be participation from Israelis of all walks of life and sympathetic voices in government.
 
I do not think it is a violation of their rules to compare the opposition to apartheid to the opposition to Israeli policies. However, the action against apartheid is one of the first things I though of with regards to this activity. It wasn't effective there either. Rather it was, like I said, a result of strong internal dissent. On a little side note the ANC also engaged in terrorism and violence against civilians. Yet today the people who were involved in this and supported it are hailed around the world.

Exactly, and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that some of what the ANC did is ignored. But the artist boycott of South Africa made it okay to say yes, even though we don't support terrorist tactics, apartheid is still wrong and we're going to oppose it. It seems to me that applying that moral pressure from the outside could make the government more responsive, though maybe I'm mistaken in thinking that happened with South Africa.
 
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I do not think it is a violation of their rules to compare the opposition to apartheid to the opposition to Israeli policies. However, the action against apartheid is one of the first things I though of with regards to this activity. It wasn't effective there either. Rather it was, like I said, a result of strong internal dissent. On a little side note the ANC also engaged in terrorism and violence against civilians. Yet today the people who were involved in this and supported it are hailed around the world.



Well a campaign of non-violence would really require more than just Palestinians resisting. Israel showed how far it was willing to go during the First Intifada. There needs to be participation from Israelis of all walks of life and sympathetic voices in government.


The ANC did resort to violence but it was mostly civil disobedience that got them as far as they did. Mandella was influenced by Gandhi who in turn was influenced by Thoreau.

The pro-Israelis yell each time that I bring up the first Intifada in 87 as a protest with stones that was met by bullets, but that's what it was and I still think that they should have continued to protest with stones, they would have gained much more and spared many lives.
 
The ANC did resort to violence but it was mostly civil disobedience that got them as far as they did. Mandella was influenced by Gandhi who in turn was influenced by Thoreau.

The pro-Israelis yell each time that I bring up the first Intifada in 87 as a protest with stones that was met by bullets, but that's what it was and I still think that they should have continued to protest with stones, they would have gained much more and spared many lives.

Trying to kill Jews by hitting them in the head with rocks is better than using other means, is it?
 
Trying to kill Jews by hitting them in the head with rocks is better than using other means, is it?

Yeah, about 1100 Palestinians were killed against 160 Israelis. Stones are terrrrible against one of the best equipped armies in the world.
 
Yeah, about 1100 Palestinians were killed against 160 Israelis. Stones are terrrrible against one of the best equipped armies in the world.

Well, it's just good to have you being so open in your support for killing Jews.
 
I'm saying this because in Lebanon it is the Police who's being intolerant with homosexuals because of that stupid law not the Hizbollah.

You honestly want me to believe that a fundementalist Shia radical group such as Hizbollah is tolerant towards the homosexuals?

I'm sure that there has never been a decision by the government to ban homosexuality otherwise the gay bars would have been closed a long time ago.

I agree, but then again it's not like they haven't enfroced that law in the past, they have raided the biggest and the first gay bar in the Arab world, the Acid nightclub.

On the other hand and as far back as I can remember some famous Lebanese are gays or transvestides. A very famous radio talk show host, a TV series character (remember him from when I was little) a famous painter who had a sex change operation etc.. etc...

I'd like to read more about it, can you give names?

By the way, for how long have your religious fanatics existed ?

I don't understand the question; there was never a time in the history of mankind - since the merging of the three big religions - that one of these religions did not have any religious fanatics at all.
 
When it comes to the LGBT community Israel is one of the most progressive countries in the world. It is unfortunate such progressive ideals are not reflected in other aspects of Israeli policy.

Oh but they are, you're just not in the right position to see this, so to speak.
 
Yeah, about 1100 Palestinians were killed against 160 Israelis. Stones are terrrrible against one of the best equipped armies in the world.

You're forgetting also the 1000 Palestinians that were killed by... Palestinians.

Besides that, throwing stones is indeed a violent approach, and the violence was directed towards civilians and soldiers alike.
 
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