15 people have been charged in the Flint water scandal

[JasperL]

You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about. Until Snyder took office, Flint got it's water from Detroit, and was in the process of designing a new pipeline to take it's water directly from Lake Huron. Yes, Democrats screwed up the city financially, and Snyder dissolved Flint's government, and appointed a manager to run the city. It is this manager who has been charged with manslaughter, as well as others. Despite hard evidence that water from the Flint River was toxic, they nonetheless ordered that the city's water come directly from that river in order to save a buck. Christ, when I was a kid, I used to skip stones off the Flint River because it made sparks. Part of the Flint River, near the old A/C Sparks Plugs plant, actually caught on fire. Not the size of the Detroit River Fire or the Cuyahoga River Fire in Cleveland, but a fire. Snyder's people saw the data with their own eyes that the water was toxic, and able to leech lead from the piping, but went ahead with it anyways. That is why the manslaughter charges and other indictments. Snyder's people committed homicide, people died or are crippled for life, and they are going to pay for it. Before you shoot off your mouth, try a little reading. Sorry if I am so nasty about this, but this is where I ****ing grew up, and people who try to make this political by finger pointing at everybody except those criminally charged really piss me off.

I haven't followed this story as much as I should, but it's just really unbelievable this kind of thing actually happened in the U.S. in the 21st century. Testing is easy, preventing the contamination easy, so the problems obvious, and the solutions pretty simple. I can't even figure out what motivated those objecting to fixing the problem. They can't have thought the problem would go away or be ignored - people were dying. Etc.

It's just a level of malevolent, willful misconduct and incompetence that I just cannot imagine in the modern era.

Thanks for highlighting this latest.

 

[Excon]

Your list of identical micro-carps and habitual repeat of the same trivial snarks aren't worthy of serious dialog. On the other hand, it makes it simple to boil down your complaints to a few statements:

- You can't support justice without being first to which political party the accused belongs to.
- You think the system that supports your tainted view of justice by an ideological litmus test is peachy cool.
- Yet you want to believe that the charges under this "unflawed system" are unfair and violate equal protection because they are either democrats or government officials.

You have established that you have no idea of what I said.

Clearly what I said has to be repeated as you are not paying attention and are making up an absurd strawman to argue instead.
Again.
This is what I said.

Lay out their actions and the charges for review.
That is because I want actual justice to be achieved, not public outrage to drive a verdict like you apparently do.​

To that I have replied that someone is responsible for the poisoning of Flint citizens and they must be held accountable, period.

Be it those charged or some other party. I have no idea how fair the charges are for these specific individuals, but I do know that those officials who rigged water testing, wrote letters to investigators that they were using anti-corrosive chemicals (they were not) in accordance with EPA requirements, and who accused citizens for 18 months of being hysterics were liars and reckless.

I have no problem with throwing those persons responsible under the wheels of justice - but you do.

Assumptions upon assumptions clouded by bias. Do you really not understand that though a person may be responsible for their actions the action, may not be criminal? Do you not understand that it its possible to argue that an action should not be criminal as well?
Again; Lay out their actions and the charges for review.

Here is one early report that illuminates: https://www.michigan.gov/documents/ag/Flint+Water+Interim+Report_575711_7.pdf

Says enough, I think.

iLOL No it actually doesn't. It reads more like a prosecutions narrative, short on stated reasons behind the so-called facts.
Though it does redeem itself somewhat by what it closes with and is clearly far more fair than you can be by that printed acknowledgement.

A charge is merely an accusation, and the defendants are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
​

 

[maxparrish]

What's a little bit amusing here is the people charged worked under Snyder (R) and those appointed by the city manager hired by Snyder, presumably Republicans or non-partisans but answering ultimately to a Republican, and your lean is 'conservative' so there's no case I can see of your bias - the opposite in fact. eace

The willful failure by a public official, no matter what their party, on the lead poisoning of thousands of children AND the cause of one of the largest outbreaks of Legionnaires disease is inexcusable in 21st century America. Yes, I am a conservatarian but I am also someone who believes that some cages need to be rattled for those in power. I worked in government for 20 years and found its easier for all parties to do nothing than push for action (from either the top or the bottom.).

I'm going to post details as I uncover them:

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/07/state_epidemiologist_allegedly.html

FLINT, MI - ...The former director, Corinne Miller, 65, of Dewitt, was one of six state employees charged with felonies on Friday, July 29 in connection to Flint's water crisis.

This is the second round of charges in connection to the Flint water crisis.

Miller, along with Nancy Peeler and Robert Scott, knew children in Flint were being poisoned by lead and suppressed the information, special investigators with the Attorney General's Office allege.

Peeler was the director of the MDHHS (Health and Human Svcs) Program for Maternal, Infant, and Early Childhood Home Visiting in July 2015 when she requested an internal report on blood lead levels in Flint children. The report was created on July 28 and showed a significant spike in blood lead tests for kids in Flint for the summer of 2014, the Schuette said.

That report was never passed on to the proper health officials, investigators allege.

Peeler and Robert L. Scott, the data manager for the Healthy Homes and Lead Prevention program, created a second report two days later that falsely indicated there was no significate rise blood lead levels of Flint children for the summer 2014. Peeler, 54, of Midland was charged with felony misconduct in office and conspiracy, along with misdemeanor willful neglect of duty by a public officer.

Miller received the report first, but told others not to take action and snubbed other employees who asked about what to do next, Schuette said. She later told another MDHHS employee to delete emails concerning the original blood lead data report from July 28, 2015.

Michigan Department of Environmental Quality employee Liane Schekter-Smith, then chief of the Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance, communicated with the MDHHS on the day of the original blood lead data report from July 28, 2015.

Shetker-Smith allegedly failed to take corrective action or notify public health officials and took steps to mislead and conceal evidence from health officials, according to Schuette.

Shetker-Smith, 56, of Marshall faces charges that include misconduct in office, a five-year felony, and misdemeanor willful neglect of duty.

Adam Rosenthal, 43, of East Lansing, worked in Shekter-Smith's department and was warned by Flint Water Treatment Plant officials that the city's plant was not ready for operations and was later warned by the Environmental Protection Agency that high levels of lead is usually because of particulate lead, which signifies a corrosion problem.

Rosenthal is accused of manipulating lead testing results and falsely reporting that the 90th percentile of the results for lead water testing was below the federal action level, investigators said.

Eventually, a July 28, 2015 report was changed to exclude some high lead tests and Rosenthal forwarded the altered report on. Previously charged MDEQ (Michigan Department of Environmental Quality) employees Stephen Busch and Michael Prysby also were allegedly involved, Schuette said.
[/B]

Rosenthal is charged with felonies that include misconduct in office, tampering with evidence or misconduct in office, tampering with evidence and misdemeanor willful neglect of duty.

Patrick Cook, 52, of Dewitt, is in charge of compliance for lead and copper monitoring with the MDEQ. In 2014, Cook signed a permit that was the last approval needed for use of the Flint Water Treatment Plant, Schuette said.

Cook was subsequently aware of the problems with Flint's water, investigators said, but took no corrective action. He also is accused of misleading the EPA in connection to the necessity of using corrosion control in Flint after the switch to Flint River Water.


Cook is charged with misconduct in office, conspiracy to commit misconduct in office and a misdemeanor charge of willful neglect of duty by a public officer.

Unfriggen believable.

 

[Rosie1]

I've thought for a long time Gov. Snyder should have been charged. And it shouldn't be a political thing. It's basic right and wrong. Shame on all involved in poisoning a city!

 

[maxparrish]

I've thought for a long time Gov. Snyder should have been charged. And it shouldn't be a political thing. It's basic right and wrong. Shame on all involved in poisoning a city!

I don't know that Snyder should be charged, but it is certainly not to his credit that he appointed these morons, nor that his office seemed to take a hands off attitude towards public complaints over the water quality issue.

What I do know is that any official that changed the results of water tests, that issued statements contrary to what reports that already had, that lied to the public about its chemical preventatives, that ordered the deletion of emails and ignored the advice of the heroes of this morality tale (I will list them) ought to be drug out into the courtyard and put on the gallows.

Some of the heros are: https://www.watercheck.biz/blogs/water-news/75001797-top-5-heroes-of-the-flint-water-crisis

Hero # 1 - The Mother - LeeAnne Walters
Shortly after the switch of the Flint water supply from the Detroit system to the Flint River back in April 2014, residents of Flint began noticing a number of unexplained health effects in themselves and/or their family members, with 37 year old LeeAnne Walters, mother to four, being no exception. After horrible health effects on her children (slowed growth, hair falling out, hyper inflamed skin rashes) in January of 2015 she did everything in her power to uncover the truth, including having her own water tested. When city officials refused to listen, Walters contacted the next "hero" in the crisis, Miguel Del Toral, who works for the EPA.

Hero #2 - The EPA Beaureacrat - Miguel Del Toral
Miguel Del Toral, who works for the EPA. Mr Del Toral took a personal interest in the Flint Water Crisis and the specific concerns of LeeAnne Walters.
After reviewing the details of the case, Toral made the following statement to the American Civil Liberties Union: "From a technical standpoint, there's just no justification for the way Flint is conducting its tests...Any credible scientist will tell you [the city's] method is not the way to catch worst-case conditions." The EPA, however, initially didn't listen to this employee.

Hero # 3 - The Professor - Marc Edwards, an expert in lead corrosion at Virginia Tech University. was compelled LeeAnne Walter's story and began his own independent investigation of the Flint water crisis. The research team at Virginia Tech consists of undergraduate and graduate students, postdoctoral researchers, research scientists and principal investigators.

Edward's research team spent over $150,000 to prove Ms. Walters private water testing was accurate. They found that water from the Flint river was almost 20 times more corrosive then the earlier water supply. In addition the Virginia Tech team found that one in six Flint, MI households had elevated lead levels.

Hero # 4 - The Doctor - Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha

“We were hearing reports of lead in the water by the Virginia Tech group and when we, as pediatricians, hear about lead anywhere we need to act. We know lead. When we started to do our research, we weren’t seeing kids coming in with symptoms of lead poisoning because lead is largely asymptomatic, it has no symptoms. ... when we looked back at our numbers was that the percentage of kids with elevated levels doubled in the whole city and in some neighborhoods it tripled.

On September 2015 Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha were made public, exposing incredibly high levels of lead in many Flint households and the doubling and even tripling of lead blood levels in Flint children since the start of the Flint water crisis. At this point, state officials still remained in public denial, but more heroes were on their way to help.

Hero # 5 - The Reporter - Curt Guyette, ACLU.

Guyette had been looking after the story of lead in Flint's water for quite a long time, even as authorities guaranteed residents and the media that everything was under control. Guyette has created a small documentary about worries with the water for the ACLU of Michigan, where he acts as an investigative reporter. That prompted a scoop—a leaked report from a US EPA official that clarified how Michigan's procedure for lead testing in Flint's water conveyed misleadingly low results.

...but no matter how compelling the evidence, officials continued to stonewall, deny the truth and resisted action until there was enough public outcry for accountability in government.

Twelve people died from the Legionnaire's disease traced to the water, hundreds with extremely high levels of lead in their bones and with neurological disorders. Sad.

 

[JasperL]

You have established that you have no idea of what I said.

Clearly what I said has to be repeated as you are not paying attention and are making up an absurd strawman to argue instead.
Again.
This is what I said.

Lay out their actions and the charges for review.
That is because I want actual justice to be achieved, not public outrage to drive a verdict like you apparently do.​

Assumptions upon assumptions clouded by bias. Do you really not understand that though a person may be responsible for their actions the action, may not be criminal? Do you not understand that it its possible to argue that an action should not be criminal as well?
Again; Lay out their actions and the charges for review.


iLOL No it actually doesn't. It reads more like a prosecutions narrative, short on stated reasons behind the so-called facts.
Though it does redeem itself somewhat by what it closes with and is clearly far more fair than you can be by that printed acknowledgement.

A charge is merely an accusation, and the defendants are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
​

Google not working on your machine?

I tried to find the details. It wasn't difficult - took all of maybe 2-3 minutes I'm guessing. Here's a few of the indictments. Knock yourself out. You'll have to click through to the actual court docs at hyperlinks with the name of each of those indicted. Hope that's manageable for you.

https://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-359-82917_78314-423854--,00.html

So if you're interested in the details, why not, you know, look and find them for yourself?

 

[RetiredUSN]

You should read up on the crisis and get the basics correct before commenting further. You're just demonstrating a near total ignorance of what happened with that comment.

I know what happened.

Placing all the blame at the state level only lets the local government off the hook after years and years of sticking their heads into a hole.

Your intentional ignorance id evident.

 

[JasperL]

I know what happened.

Placing all the blame at the state level only lets the local government off the hook after years and years of sticking their heads into a hole.

Your intentional ignorance id evident.

The water problems were created when the state appointed manager switched water supplies, botched the rushed move, spent years ignoring data showing there was a problem that was poisoning and killing residents, covered it up, and more.

If you think I'm wrong, post your evidence. I'll not wait on your non-response.

 

[maxparrish]

The other 8 have been charged with crimes ranging from obstruction to manslaughter.

Justice is finally being served in my home town.

https://apnews.com/bd7cac3dee0341fba374a28cf716a6a6

But is justice actually being served? When the thread began I stated that I am all for going after those responsible, regardless of political affiliation. "Excon" was concerned if it were the right thing to do - a valid concern IF you are NOT going after the responsible.

NOW I am beginning to wonder... the AP recently reported: https://apnews.com/3ab56627e5c347ecb039a829b314a564

Michigan's attorney general in 2016 promised to investigate "without fear or favor" the scandal over Flint's lead-tainted drinking water and pledged that state regulators would be locked up for fudging data and misleading the public.

Yet three years later, no one is behind bars. Instead, seven of 15 defendants have pleaded no contest to misdemeanors, some as minor as disrupting a public meeting. Their records eventually will be scrubbed clean.

That has angered some people in Flint who believe key players who could have prevented the lead disaster are getting off easy. Four of five people at the state Department of Environmental Quality who were on the front line of the crisis have struck deals. The remaining cases mostly center on a deadly outbreak of Legionnaires' disease and early disastrous decisions to use water from the Flint River.

"I'm furious — absolutely furious," said LeeAnne Walters, a mother of four who is credited with exposing the lead contamination. "It's a slap in the face to every victim in the city of Flint." …

I was hopeful that FINALLY government employees who were directly criminal were being held responsible. My hopes may not be realizable. I have a sinking feeling that prosecutors don't understand the nature of the abuse of power in bureaucratic culture or that perhaps the prosecution is more interested in poltics.

Here are those whose records of those that were allowed to plead to single insignificant misdemeanor and whose records will be scrubbed in a year:

Corinne Miller, former Director in MDHHS - Sh: knew children in Flint were being poisoned by lead and suppressed the information, special investigators with the Attorney General's Office said. On July 28th, an internal report on blood lead levels in Flint children, was first reviewed by Corinne Miller. It showed a significant spike in blood lead tests for kids in Flint for the summer of 2014. Miller received the report first, but told others not to take action and snubbed other employees who asked about what to do next, Schuette said. She later told another MDHHS employee to delete emails concerning the original blood lead data report from July 28, 2015. Plead guilty to

Liane Schekter-Smith, Michigan Department of Environmental Quality employee and then chief of the Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance, communicated with the MDHHS on the day of the original blood lead data report from July 28, 2015.Shetker-Smith allegedly failed to take corrective action or notify public health officials and took steps to mislead and conceal evidence from health officials, according to Schuette.

Adam Rosenthal, 43, of East Lansing, worked in Shekter-Smith's department and was warned by Flint Water Treatment Plant officials that the city's plant was not ready for operations and was later warned by the Environmental Protection Agency that high levels of lead is usually because of particulate lead, which signifies a corrosion problem.

Rosenthal is accused of manipulating lead testing results and falsely reporting that the 90th percentile of the results for lead water testing was below the federal action level, investigators said.

Environmental Regulators Prysby and Busch were accused of instructing the manager of the Flint water plant to exclude high-lead samples from a report on Flint's water, lowering the results so as to satisfy the Lead and Copper legal limits. Felonies dropped for misconduct, tampering of evidence, and violation of the State Water Act.

Mike Glasgow, lab and water quality supervisor for the City of Flint was charged with two counts of evidence tampering and one count of neglect of office.

Daugherty Johnson, Utilities Administrator charged with conspiracy and false pretenses.

 

[Mason66]

As what you suggest is demented I have no doubt you would support it just as you stated.

I want to see each case laid out for review to see if their actions and the charges hold.

Isn't that what the court is going to do?

 

[Excon]

Isn't that what the court is going to do?

Make demented suggestions like the poster to which I made reply?
Hopefully no.

Or are you perhaps replying the second sentence in that reply? If so ... Do you not understand the difference between here and there?
This is a debate site where things are debated regardless of what a court may find. The point is that I am not going to make assumptions like the others are wont to do.

 

[OscarLevant]

The other 8 have been charged with crimes ranging from obstruction to manslaughter.

Justice is finally being served in my home town.

https://apnews.com/bd7cac3dee0341fba374a28cf716a6a6

Snyder needs to be charged, as well. The buck stops with him, he ordered the gov take over of local legislatures, which led to the situation.

 

[madasheck]

The other 8 have been charged with crimes ranging from obstruction to manslaughter.

Justice is finally being served in my home town.

https://apnews.com/bd7cac3dee0341fba374a28cf716a6a6

Good to hear this finally.

 

[OscarLevant]

People being charged doesn't mean it is the correct/right thing to do.
Lay the cases out.
And since this is a political forum, what are their political affiliations.

Gov Snyder, a republican, signed the emergency management bill which resulted in unelected officials taking over local legislatures, installing "emergency managers". If Snyder didn't like how local elected officals were running things at the local level, he installed "emergency managers" to take over.

Two of the charged were Emergency Managers that Snyder installed. Note that appointing emergency managers doesn't mean there is an emergency, it just means they are appointed to take over government at a local level because Gov Snyder didn't like how they were governing at the local level, disregarding those that were elected.

Michigan officials announced felony charges against two former state-appointed emergency managers, accusing them of fixating on saving money rather than on the safety of residents.

The managers, who were appointed by Gov. Rick Snyder to lead Flint out of fiscal distress, were charged over their roles in the public health crisis prompted by the city’s switch to a new water source, as well as the delays in responding to residents’ complaints as they suffered the devastating effects.

[...]

For years, governors here have appointed emergency managers as a way to efficiently cut debts and restore financial stability in the most troubled cities. But residents of some majority-black Michigan cities, including Flint, argue that the intense state-assigned oversight disenfranchises voters, shifts control from mostly Democratic cities to the state’s Republican-held capital and risks favoring financial discipline over public health.

Therefore, Snyder is ultimately responsible.

 

[Xelor]

15 people have been charged in the Flint water scandal

Good.

 

[Excon]

Gov Snyder, a republican, signed the emergency management bill which resulted in unelected officials taking over local legislatures, installing "emergency managers". If Snyder didn't like how local elected officals were running things at the local level, he installed "emergency managers" to take over.

Two of the charged were Emergency Managers that Snyder installed. Note that appointing emergency managers doesn't mean there is an emergency, it just means they are appointed to take over government at a local level because Gov Snyder didn't like how they were governing at the local level, disregarding those that were elected.



Therefore, Snyder is ultimately responsible.

*sigh*

You are not telling me anything I did not know, nor does it answer what it quoted.

 

[JasperL]

*sigh*

You are not telling me anything I did not know, nor does it answer what it quoted.

Why don't you read the indictments if you're interested in seeing the cases laid out?

 

[marke]

The other 8 have been charged with crimes ranging from obstruction to manslaughter.

Justice is finally being served in my home town.

https://apnews.com/bd7cac3dee0341fba374a28cf716a6a6

The Flint water crisis was a failure on the part of government at various levels. It may be unfair to single out government and civilian employees to blame for those systematic government failures.

 

[Excon]

Why don't you read the indictments if you're interested in seeing the cases laid out?

I want to see it all.
The indictments (prosecutors narrative), the actual law, case law and their individual accounts defenses.
You have all of that?

 

[JasperL]

I want to see it all.
The indictments (prosecutors narrative), the actual law, case law and their individual accounts defenses.
You have all of that?

Good for you, I guess. Since that's not available, and you know it's not available, nor is it a reasonable request on any forum because we're we're not your personal research assistants, why are you wasting time demanding it before you'll discuss the issue?

 

[Excon]

Good for you, I guess. Since that's not available, and you know it's not available, nor is it a reasonable request on any forum because we're we're not your personal research assistants, why are you wasting time demanding it before you'll discuss the issue?

iLOL Clearly you are having an argument I am not having.
The question was rhetorical as I know you do not have that information. Nor was it a request or demand for anyone to get it.
What you failed to realize is that the rhetorical question points out that no one should be passing judgement on these folks at this point in time because you all lack the appropriate info.

 

[RetiredUSN]

The water problems were created when the state appointed manager switched water supplies, botched the rushed move, spent years ignoring data showing there was a problem that was poisoning and killing residents, covered it up, and more.

If you think I'm wrong, post your evidence. I'll not wait on your non-response.

The City of Flint and the EM decided to make the change but they also decided to stick with just blaming Snyder .

https://www.c-span.org/video/?403297-1/michigan-governor-rick-snyder-state-state-address

There is a link to the time line of events.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/FlintWaterTimeline_FINAL_511424_7.pdf?20160119192241

There is plenty of blame to go around and none of you want to admit this. The EM was working hand and hand with the incompetency of the city Government and it's public works.

To date, 15 current or former state and City of Flint employees have been charged by Schuette with crimes ranging from misdemeanors to involuntary manslaughter. Four defendants have entered no contest pleas to misdemeanor charges.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...nt-investigator-fraud-water-crisis/454066002/

Snyder's action were only as good as the information he was given from the locals and his EM.

 

[JasperL]

iLOL Clearly you are having an argument I am not having.
The question was rhetorical as I know you do not have that information. Nor was it a request or demand for anyone to get it.
What you failed to realize is that the rhetorical question points out that no one should be passing judgement on these folks at this point in time because you all lack the appropriate info.

Your opinion is noted and disregarded. There is a wealth of evidence these people willfully concealed problems, then willfully failed to correct the deficiencies or notify residents of the dangers in the water supply that poisoned many, including children, and killed others. What evidence you need to condemn such malevolent misconduct is up to you, but you have no business telling others what's appropriate.

 

[JasperL]

The City of Flint and the EM decided to make the change but they also decided to stick with just blaming Snyder .

https://www.c-span.org/video/?403297-1/michigan-governor-rick-snyder-state-state-address

There is a link to the time line of events.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/FlintWaterTimeline_FINAL_511424_7.pdf?20160119192241

There is plenty of blame to go around and none of you want to admit this. The EM was working hand and hand with the incompetency of the city Government and it's public works.

To date, 15 current or former state and City of Flint employees have been charged by Schuette with crimes ranging from misdemeanors to involuntary manslaughter. Four defendants have entered no contest pleas to misdemeanor charges.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...nt-investigator-fraud-water-crisis/454066002/

Snyder's action were only as good as the information he was given from the locals and his EM.

Your original assertion was this:

The city of Flint knew about the problem for years before we ever heard about it.

The lock step incompetent democrat [sic] city leadership waited for it to get out of hand so the state could take over and take the blame.

The "problem" with the water didn't arise until AFTER Gov. Snyder disbanded the city government and appointed an emergency manager, and he and the key people below him and whose actions he was responsible to oversee, because that is the job of the boss, ****ed up the transition, hid problems, covered up problems, didn't fix problems they knew existed, which sickened and killed people etc...

So I have no idea what point you're making now. Other than "liberals suck" which I think is your only point.

 

[Excon]

Your opinion is noted and disregarded.

iLOL Unlike yours, it is entirely accurate here.

There is a wealth of evidence these people willfully concealed problems, then willfully failed to correct the deficiencies or notify residents of the dangers in the water supply that poisoned many, including children, and killed others. What evidence you need to condemn such malevolent misconduct is up to you, but you have no business telling others what's appropriate.

Wrong as usual. As already pointed out, there is not enough information available to make such judgements.