12 Years Later, Truthers Still Have No Clue

[SanderO]

Flashover results in a confined space when there is a sudden rush of oxigen fire was already out of the windows when the exposive puff occured. Are you really going to claim the smoke travels down forty stories and then exited the building in an explosive puff??? no thanks I don't buy your lack of logic.

No two different things.... at the strike zone there was massive fires raging and the dropping mass forced the fires and smoke out... not an explosion... but a bust of air.

 

[doniston]

No two different things.... at the strike zone there was massive fires raging and the dropping mass forced the fires and smoke out... not an explosion... but a bust of air.

There was no dropping mass at that point so from whence comes the burst of air??? I read nonsense

 

[Kanzaki]

There was no dropping mass at that point so from whence comes the burst of air??? I read nonsense

Then unfortunately the kid gloves come off and I have to say you aren't thinking hard enough. The mass doesn't need to be at that point for the air inside the building to have started being "pushed" through. The mass of the north tower alone exceeded that of the Titanic. I'm sorry you've had to deal with a lot of harassment from a few members, but unfortunately if you can't listen and ask questions on the "why's" of that explanation we're going to waste a crap ton of time because there's no progress in any discussion. I'm burned out from hearing these same arguments for several years... unless you're going to explain your position and listen before you fire off that "you have no logic" line I fail to see the point in devoting my personal time to trying to answer your questions properly.

As far as your specific comment goes if you've got doubts about what's been explained then you need to work from where your laymen understanding of the situation can help you best. Listen to the audio and video record. Explosives make loud sounds - loud enough to cause temporary hearing loss. Explosives expose unprotected areas to the risk of flying shrapnel. No injuries consistent with that. The witness testimony can be explained by plenty else and isn't corroborated enough to support the presence of explosive devices.

I take it a few steps further with my design background. But you'll have to be interested enough before I devote the time to explain my methods of thinking. I'm not going to play posting tag on this, and I'm not going to waste even more time trying to harass you into an answer.

 

[doniston]

Then unfortunately the kid gloves come off and I have to say you aren't thinking hard enough. The mass doesn't need to be at that point for the air inside the building to have started being "pushed" through. The mass of the north tower alone exceeded that of the Titanic. I'm sorry you've had to deal with a lot of harassment from a few members, but unfortunately if you can't listen and ask questions on the "why's" of that explanation we're going to waste a crap ton of time because there's no progress in any discussion. I'm burned out from hearing these same arguments for several years... unless you're going to explain your position and listen before you fire off that "you have no logic" line I fail to see the point in devoting my personal time to trying to answer your questions properly.

As far as your specific comment goes if you've got doubts about what's been explained then you need to work from where your laymen understanding of the situation can help you best. Listen to the audio and video record. Explosives make loud sounds - loud enough to cause temporary hearing loss. Explosives expose unprotected areas to the risk of flying shrapnel. No injuries consistent with that. The witness testimony can be explained by plenty else and isn't corroborated enough to support the presence of explosive devices.

I take it a few steps further with my design background. But you'll have to be interested enough before I devote the time to explain my methods of thinking. I'm not going to play posting tag on this, and I'm not going to waste even more time trying to harass you into an answer.

OK lets stary at the very first of your post. You are talking about a moving mass right? what mass was moving at that time?

certainly not the whole of the north tower as it hadn't started to colapse yet

cetainly you weren't talking about even the top block It hadn't started collapsing either. proof of that is in the picture

the part that would first start moving would be the top block and that would start with a distortion of the floor directly just above the crash site

the picture shows no evidence of that

Now if neither of these portion are what you are speaking of regarding mass please enlighten me because I know of no othe mass but the upper block and the lower portion.

please explain what I am missing because I can no other parts or mass involved

 

[Kanzaki]

OK lets stary at the very first of your post. You are talking about a moving mass right? what mass was moving at that time?

If you're still talking about post #124 it would be the region above the fire and impact regions, which is shown to initiate in the animation. I checked the progress of the discussion back a couple of pages and the chain of this current exchange leads back to those. You then remarked:

Are you really going to claim the smoke travels down forty stories and then exited the building in an explosive puff???

Which is where I then tied in the post #124 contents with your comment. There were isolated incidents of debris being ejected ahead of the main collapse front after it started and that is the result of the air inside the building being compressed and forced out. The same is true of when the fires are shown being "blown out" when the upper section in the north tower begins to descend.

Again the chain of posts in this thread leads back to those three gif images, in which case there is a period just prior to collapse, and during the first moments of collapse onset.
You're post now appears to imply that you're referring to another image. Please clarify if yes or no. We need to eliminate confusion before we proceed.

Once you clarify and we have this straightened out, I'll work on visual diagrams to explain things better. Doing so will require a couple days once started but it'll be loads easier to show you things visually.

 

[KokomoJojo]

There was no dropping mass at that point so from whence comes the burst of air??? I read nonsense

sparklers too!

 

[doniston]

If you're still talking about post #124 it would be the region above the fire and impact regions, which is shown to initiate in the animation. I checked the progress of the discussion back a couple of pages and the chain of this current exchange leads back to those. You then remarked:

Which is where I then tied in the post #124 contents with your comment. There were isolated incidents of debris being ejected ahead of the main collapse front after it started and that is the result of the air inside the building being compressed and forced out. The same is true of when the fires are shown being "blown out" when the upper section in the north tower begins to descend.

Again the chain of posts in this thread leads back to those three gif images, in which case there is a period just prior to collapse, and during the first moments of collapse onset.
You're post now appears to imply that you're referring to another image. Please clarify if yes or no. We need to eliminate confusion before we proceed.

Once you clarify and we have this straightened out, I'll work on visual diagrams to explain things better. Doing so will require a couple days once started but it'll be loads easier to show you things visually.

Yes, I am talking about the first of the three videos in post 124 the one with a repeating
line of erupting fire and smoke from right side to a little more than half way across the
building, and

no, everything in my post refers to that one video.

As for the mid part of your post I am confused, it seem almost at tho we ar4e looking
at two different videos, I see one bit of possible debris coming from the front left side
and at the front right,( tho unclear) a possible spot of flame about ten stories up (which
doesn't make sense)

but I see no evidence of the start of the collapse which would be a tilt of the top portion
and no apparent distortion of the floors directly above the fire to indicate it.

And lastly, regarding my previous statement that you list regarding smoke coming down
40stories. The remark was made because the poster said that the smoke was coming from
the top of the building. Which is why I asked if he thought smoke travels downward. Which also didn't make sense. Hopefully you can clarify this, because I am confused.

 

[SanderO]

OK lets stary at the very first of your post. You are talking about a moving mass right? what mass was moving at that time?

certainly not the whole of the north tower as it hadn't started to colapse yet

cetainly you weren't talking about even the top block It hadn't started collapsing either. proof of that is in the picture

the part that would first start moving would be the top block and that would start with a distortion of the floor directly just above the crash site

the picture shows no evidence of that

Now if neither of these portion are what you are speaking of regarding mass please enlighten me because I know of no othe mass but the upper block and the lower portion.

please explain what I am missing because I can no other parts or mass involved

An instant before we observe the top facade move down... and slightly laterally... the insides broke free. The clue is the movement of the antenna BEFORE *release* of the facade. Massive amount of floor material ie multiple floors crashed down from above the impact zone where the massive fires were. This mass compressed the air and fire and smoke and it blasted out in all directions... two masses cannot occupy the same volume at the same time and the upper mass won that match and a few millions of cubic feet of air was displaced... something as much as 208 x 208 x ~72 feet (6 levels) - 3,000,000. This volume of air and contents was ejected laterally in less than a second... and moved outward at hundreds of miles per hr... do the math.. Let's say it took under a second... from the center air would move 104 feet to the perimeter in less than 0.5 seconds or 210 feet per second which is about 150 mph.

Can you measure how fast the material is ejected? If so you can estimate how fast the the air was pushed out and you will see that this ejection is from over pressure of mass collapsing not an explosion... which would show much high rates of ejection of mass from expanding gas. Do you know what smoke looks like streaming at up to 150 mph? at 100mph?

The take away here is that without even precise measurements you can see that the ejected is not from explosions but from displaced air from the material collapsing down... which also likely busted the relatively intact upper flr(s) of the lower section as ROOSD began.

 

[doniston]

An instant before we observe the top facade move down... and slightly laterally... the insides broke free. The clue is the movement of the antenna BEFORE *release* of the facade. Massive amount of floor material ie multiple floors crashed down from above the impact zone where the massive fires were. This mass compressed the air and fire and smoke and it blasted out in all directions... two masses cannot occupy the same volume at the same time and the upper mass won that match and a few millions of cubic feet of air was displaced... something as much as 208 x 208 x ~72 feet (6 levels) - 3,000,000. This volume of air and contents was ejected laterally in less than a second... and moved outward at hundreds of miles per hr... do the math.. Let's say it took under a second... from the center air would move 104 feet to the perimeter in less than 0.5 seconds or 210 feet per second which is about 150 mph.

Can you measure how fast the material is ejected? If so you can estimate how fast the the air was pushed out and you will see that this ejection is from over pressure of mass collapsing not an explosion... which would show much high rates of ejection of mass from expanding gas. Do you know what smoke looks like streaming at up to 150 mph? at 100mph?

The take away here is that without even precise measurements you can see that the ejected is not from explosions but from displaced air from the material collapsing down... which also likely busted the relatively intact upper flr(s) of the lower section as ROOSD began.

thank you for your time but no thank you. As I suspected we were on different pages, and Yes, the antenna was the clue.

The only one of those three videos which includes the antenna is the second one, which shows both towers, the South tower collapsing in a cloud of smoke and debris,and the top of the north tower (with antenna) enveloped in a cloud of black smoke. This is not the video I was describing.

The first video shows only a front portion of the North Tower, (without antenna) and the
features I have already described. Different videos. And thus different perspectives ,

so thanks again but no Thank You/

 

[psikeyhackr]

This mass compressed the air and fire and smoke and it blasted out in all directions... two masses cannot occupy the same volume at the same time and the upper mass won that match and a few millions of cubic feet of air was displaced... something as much as 208 x 208 x ~72 feet (6 levels) - 3,000,000. This volume of air and contents was ejected laterally in less than a second... and moved outward at hundreds of miles per hr... do the math.. Let's say it took under a second... from the center air would move 104 feet to the perimeter in less than 0.5 seconds or 210 feet per second which is about 150 mph.

So architects not only do not understand that air is compressible but that it can flow down stairs ways and elevator shafts.

It also assume that the mass falling from above acts as a sealed piston. So how did the fire go up through such tight seals?

Just make up physics to justify conclusions as you go along.

psik

 

[zyzygy]

So architects not only do not understand that air is compressible but that it can flow down stairs ways and elevator shafts.

It also assume that the mass falling from above acts as a sealed piston. So how did the fire go up through such tight seals?

Just make up physics to justify conclusions as you go along.

psik

Wrong from start to finish. Have you ever studied physics and engineering?

 

[Kanzaki]

It also assume that the mass falling from above acts as a sealed piston.

See... this is the problem with they way you're thinking... You literally think that when we say that the air was compressed we're arguing there was a perfect seal allowing for it to happen. No... if you're going that route in the argument... the more accurate description is that the "seal was" trapping more air at a faster rate than was escaping.
Dude... it's not even JUST this detail.... you need to wrap your head around net values, because when you're referring to acceleration and velocity for example.... you can have a "negative" acceleration (resistance) and still maintain a [reduced] positive acceleration value at the same time. How does one even explain this properly without niche'ing it too much to one single concept?

 

[SanderO]

So architects not only do not understand that air is compressible but that it can flow down stairs ways and elevator shafts.

It also assume that the mass falling from above acts as a sealed piston. So how did the fire go up through such tight seals?

Just make up physics to justify conclusions as you go along.

psik

The facade had no operable windows and the air instead of being compressed as in an engine cylinder burst through the glass... There was of course numerous large openings between floors as well.. shafts for hvac and elevators.. if the shaft walls were breached gas can move vertically from floor to floor.

 

[KokomoJojo]

See... this is the problem with they way you're thinking... You literally think that when we say that the air was compressed we're arguing there was a perfect seal allowing for it to happen. No... if you're going that route in the argument... the more accurate description is that the "seal was" trapping more air at a faster rate than was escaping.
Dude... it's not even JUST this detail.... you need to wrap your head around net values, because when you're referring to acceleration and velocity for example.... you can have a "negative" acceleration (resistance) and still maintain a [reduced] positive acceleration value at the same time. How does one even explain this properly without niche'ing it too much to one single concept?

good luck with that logical detour