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107-year-old man killed by SWAT Team.

If I'd been the old codger I'd have detonated my claymore once the entry team was in the target zone.
 
MaggieD said:
WTF? That's the resolution to a problem with a 107-year-old man, for God's sake?
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Probably could have just waited for him to fall asleep, I'm sure that wasn't long off. These guys saying deadly force was ok are insane unless this guy was making himself a threat to others quicker than the police could evacuate others from being threatened...unlikely given his age. Just because you can do something and loosely justify it, doesn't mean you should do it.
 
The cops job is to beat up and or kill people they did their job what's the problem?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Why does negotiating have to end with an attack? Keep negotiating... with bullet proof shields and tactical armour they certainly did not need to go busting into his house. They are in the wrong.
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As I said earlier, if they'd backed off and he'd squeezed off a round on accident and an innocent was killed, we'd be berating them for being too timid to do their job. Given the distance bullets can travel, there was no way for them to guarantee that simply pulling back and waiting wouldn't result in casualties. They gave him a bunch of chances to surrender, he failed, they did what they had to do. There is literally no moral or legal standard which puts them in the wrong, but don't let that get int he way of your armchair quarterbacking.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
They didn't have a chance to take "aggressive" action, he shot at them through the freaking door when they showed up. He was lucky they invested as much energy as they did trying not to kill him. He failed to take the numerous chances he was given to stop threatening the lives of others. End of.
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Wrong, they implemented an aggressive posture. It sounds like they didn't try to diffuse the situation by easing pressure and laying off which is what they should have done dealing with a person of this age. Probably more info to come out, but the limited reporting indicates cavalier police action.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
If you repeatedly shoot at cops you are going to get blown away. They tried to avoid killing him, he gave them no choice.
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Yep! Never give a sucker an even break. Just blow 'em away.
 
MaggieD said:
Oh, let's see -- they could have popped in teargas; stun grenades. They could have waited it out. It'd only be 30 minutes before he'd have to pee, after all. I mean, really. Negotiate? Knockout gas? Something besides rushing the old man and killing him dead? Really?
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Sorry Maggie, but they did all that. And there is no such thing as knockout gas (outside of TV and the movies). You're assuming this was a basically peaceful old man just because of his age.
 
SBu said:
Probably could have just waited for him to fall asleep, I'm sure that wasn't long off. These guys saying deadly force was ok are insane unless this guy was making himself a threat to others quicker than the police could evacuate others from being threatened...unlikely given his age. Just because you can do something and loosely justify it, doesn't mean you should do it.
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Oh cmon. First, how would YOU react if the police kicked you and your family out of your home and neighborhood for 24 hours because they were waiting for the old fart to go to sleep. You be saying just go in there and get his ass. Especially a guy who had just been threatening others with a sidearm (the police were there for the guy for a reason you know). Second, they gave the guy every out, every chance to stop shooting and surrender.
 
I wonder if he responded to the negotiations with" "You'll never take me alive coppers!"

You know, with his best Cagney impression.
 
MaggieD said:
WTF? That's the resolution to a problem with a 107-year-old man, for God's sake?
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I see absolutely nothing wrong with what these folks did. They followed the standard protocol and SOP. Age, gender, social status, etc... should have no bearing on how we respond to people who cannot or will not obey the law. Nor should it affect the means we use to bring these people to Justice.

If you shoot at cops, you need to expect them to shoot back. I say that as someone who has many LEOs as friends and who also understands that some day I may be forced to engage in this sort of unpleasantness with LEOs as well.

It has always amazed me the way that people react to the gender, age, etc... of the criminal rather than the fact that they are a criminal.
 
clownboy said:
Oh cmon. First, how would YOU react if the police kicked you and your family out of your home and neighborhood for 24 hours because they were waiting for the old fart to go to sleep. You be saying just go in there and get his ass. Especially a guy who had just been threatening others with a sidearm (the police were there for the guy for a reason you know). Second, they gave the guy every out, every chance to stop shooting and surrender.
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The guy was 107 years old. Born in 1906. He probably had the brain capacity of a 5 year old. I would not have a problem being evacuated that long if it meant decreasing the probability of more shots fired and saving a life. You would rather have someone killed than interrupt your schedule?
 
Tigger said:
I see absolutely nothing wrong with what these folks did. They followed the standard protocol and SOP. Age, gender, social status, etc... should have no bearing on how we respond to people who cannot or will not obey the law. Nor should it affect the means we use to bring these people to Justice.

If you shoot at cops, you need to expect them to shoot back. I say that as someone who has many LEOs as friends and who also understands that some day I may be forced to engage in this sort of unpleasantness with LEOs as well.

It has always amazed me the way that people react to the gender, age, etc... of the criminal rather than the fact that they are a criminal.
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If you think law enforcement should deal with a 107-year-old man the same way they would with a 40-year-old? You have zero empathy for human beings.
 
joG said:
Yep! Never give a sucker an even break. Just blow 'em away.
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Right, because not shooting back when he shot at them through the door, and trying to negotiate, and not shooting when tear gas resulted in more gunfire, AND trying to distract him when they finally charged into the room in the hopes of getting him in-hand before he fired again -- all of that was them looking for the first chance to blow the old man away. Yes, obviously, those cops wanted nothing more than to mow down an old man. What was I thinking? :lol:
 
MaggieD said:
If you think law enforcement should deal with a 107-year-old man the same way they would with a 40-year-old? You have zero empathy for human beings.
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Yes, I do. That's their job, to ENFORCE THE LAW. Law and Order are the Opposite of empathy. That's why Lady Justice is depicted as being blindfolded.
 
SBu said:
The guy was 107 years old. Born in 1906. He probably had the brain capacity of a 5 year old. I would not have a problem being evacuated that long if it meant decreasing the probability of more shots fired and saving a life. You would rather have someone killed than interrupt your schedule?
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You're making assumptions that may not at all fit. There is no mention of the fellow's mental state. I've known a few centenarians, and NONE of them sufferred from dementia (those that do don't live to 100, onset is much earlier). And I call BS, where are you going to go when your entire family is uprooted and evacuated from your home for 24 hours? Perhaps your life is freeform, but I'm willing to bet at least some of your neighbors have to work, with children that have their own activities and schooling, and some are living paycheck to paycheck.

The story shows they went the extra mile with this guy. They didn't storm the place until after all the other methods had failed. The fellow kept shooting. This was more suicide by cop than anything else.
 
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SBu said:
The guy was 107 years old. Born in 1906. He probably had the brain capacity of a 5 year old. I would not have a problem being evacuated that long if it meant decreasing the probability of more shots fired and saving a life. You would rather have someone killed than interrupt your schedule?
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It's not the same as waiting out a 3 yr old's temper tantrum at the grocery store. He was shooting real bullets. Even if the neighborhood were evacuated, the police would not have been, and it's entirely possible that one of them could have been hit and killed. I get that LE nowadays uses force way too soon and way too often, but sometimes it is legit, as well.
 
clownboy said:
You're making assumptions that may not at all fit. There is no mention of the fellow's mental state. I've known a few centenarians, and NONE of them sufferred from dementia (those that do don't live to 100, onset is much earlier). And I call BS, where are you going to go when your entire family is uprooted and evacuated from your home for 24 hours? Perhaps your life is freeform, but I'm willing to be at least some of your neighbors have to work, with children that have their own activities and schooling, and some are living paycheck to paycheck.

The story shows they went the extra mile with this guy. They didn't storm the place until after all the other methods had failed. The fellow keep shooting. This was more suicide by cop than anything else.
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I think it's fair to say that we're both making assumptions due to the few details in the story. I'll submit that it may have been suicide by cop, but that's just a possibility.

I've also known a centurion, and at least he did not fit your description of a vibrant mentally sound person. Not drooling in a cup or anything, but certainly not altogether with it. Do you really have no where else to go for 24 hours in a crisis? I'm sure your boss would understand that you didn't get enough sleep because you had to stay at a hotel or friends house due to a police standoff with your 107 yr old neighbor, and your kids missing baseball practice is probably ok if it saves a life.

Bottom line: we don't know the full story
 
radcen said:
It's not the same as waiting out a 3 yr old's temper tantrum at the grocery store. He was shooting real bullets. Even if the neighborhood were evacuated, the police would not have been, and it's entirely possible that one of them could have been hit and killed. I get that LE nowadays uses force way too soon and way too often, but sometimes it is legit, as well.
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Agree. Like I said in another post, we're all making assumptions here.
 
SBu said:
I think it's fair to say that we're both making assumptions due to the few details in the story. I'll submit that it may have been suicide by cop, but that's just a possibility.

I've also known a centurion, and at least he did not fit your description of a vibrant mentally sound person. Not drooling in a cup or anything, but certainly not altogether with it. Do you really have no where else to go for 24 hours in a crisis? I'm sure your boss would understand that you didn't get enough sleep because you had to stay at a hotel or friends house due to a police standoff with your 107 yr old neighbor, and your kids missing baseball practice is probably ok if it saves a life.

Bottom line: we don't know the full story
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I have no need to work other than to pay for my grandchildren's schooling, but others in his neighborhood likely do. In fact some may not have money for a hotel, may be in a precarious place in their lives where a missed appointment, shift at work, is the final straw.

You're correct, we don't know the fellow's mental state or all the surrounding details to the event. However, the police did, and they acted accordingly trying to save the guy's life while keeping everyone else safe. The guy would not quit shooting at them.

Armchair quarterbacking them afterwards is a mistake.
 
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