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10 Pro-War Fallacies Debunked

oldreliable67 said:
Key words are in bold. Congress delegated the responsibility; Bush exercised the responsibility. Where is your blame for Congress? I abhor many of Bush's domestic and spending policies, but to lay the blame for Iraq solely at Bush's feet is a failure to appreciate the situation as a whole. But, it is more fun for Bush haters and those seeking partisan advantage. But thats just my opinion - YMMV.

As Bush so often likes to say, he's the commander in chief, and he asked for the authorization, so the burden was on him to use it wisely, which by any measure he did not.

oldreliable67 said:
Good lord, talk about lame! As someone said on another thread, "Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle." You know, you can do better than this. Too many of your posts are intelligent and reasoned (even if one doesn't agree, one appreciates well-founded arguments); you don't have to resort this lameness. You are capable of better.

Dude, you are the one who ended your post with "Any other lame excuse?" I was just retorting in kind. My apologies if I misunderstood you. :mrgreen:
 
Dude, you are the one who ended your post with "Any other lame excuse?" I was just retorting in kind. My apologies if I misunderstood you.

Nope. Check it out. That wasn't me. Try 'stsburns'...

Regardless, your last was much better! More complete, better reasoned and presented. Good job.
 
expat,

You listed the DSM in your post, and that reminded of an observation about same. Notice the following...

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

CDS, we're told is Sir Michael Boyce, the UK equivalent to the US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Notice the concern for Saddam's use of WMD. These comments suggest (but admittedly don't prove) that, in the UK as well as in the US, there was an extant belief that Saddam possessed WMDs and was willing to use them.

The point is that many critics have used the 'Bush lied' mantra over and over again. But here is a fairly strong suggestion that there was a belief in the existence of WMDs and Saddam's willingness to use them. If they believed it, it wasn't a lie. Poorly informed, yes, but not a lie.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Nope. Check it out. That wasn't me. Try 'stsburns'...

My bad, sorry! :doh Sometimes it's hard to keep track of who posted what.

oldreliable67 said:
Regardless, your last was much better! More complete, better reasoned and presented. Good job.

Thx, and same to you!:smile:
 
oldreliable67 said:
The point is that many critics have used the 'Bush lied' mantra over and over again. But here is a fairly strong suggestion that there was a belief in the existence of WMDs and Saddam's willingness to use them. If they believed it, it wasn't a lie. Poorly informed, yes, but not a lie.

I agree that there are those who claim Bush lied. But that is a straw man put forth by the Bush admin. A Lexus search for the instance of a Democratic politician actually saying Bush lied turns up nothing.

Personally, I don't believe Bush lied, because lying implies knowing the truth, and we all know that Bush doesn't know anything. He's a useful idiot. It was his puppet masters Cheney and Rumsfeld who lied. But he did exagerate the threat posed by Saddam. Even the CIA, which totally botched the intel in the first place, didn't think Saddam would hand over any WMD to terrorist groups, especially Al Qaeda, because, as a secular Arab leader, he feared they would use them on him. But we never heard about that. Of course, this little tidbit didn't help the trumped up "imminent threat" canard needed to justify going to war with a soverign nation that had not attacked us.

There was dissent, in the State Dept. and even in the Bush admin, but we never heard about it. All we got was the mushroom cloud that was ON ITS WAY ANY MINUTE NOW!

Bush didn't lie, he exaggerated, mischaracterized and misled. If the American people had known the truth about Iraq, the war would never have happened.
 
expat,

A Lexus search for the instance of a Democratic politician actually saying Bush lied turns up nothing.

You shoulda googled it instead of Lexis:

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean used some of his harshest language ever in a "Meet the Press" interview, charging President Bush deliberately lied [emphasis added] and deceived the American people and Congress to lead them into the Iraq invasion.

Source.
 
argexpat said:
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 (that would be Al Qaeda and Saudi Arabia)
Al Sadr?
, nor did it harbor these "organizations or persons" (that would be Afghanistan and, again, Saudi Arabia, and about a half dozen other countries).
Once again Al Sadr?
But thanks to President Incompetent Jackass and his stupid, bungled war of choice, it does now. Congrats!
Put that in your blunt and smoke it your oppoinion holds no water G.

Any other lame rebuttals?

Here is my childish rebute to your post, just as your post was childish to my response. UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO "DEBATE" LIKE AN ADULT. IF NOT, IT'S ADULT SWIM AND GET OUT OF THE POOL. Leave the debating to people with links to thier sources, unlike you who doesn't! :mrgreen:
 
oldreliable67 said:
Nope. Check it out. That wasn't me. Try 'stsburns'...

Regardless, your last was much better! More complete, better reasoned and presented. Good job.
Such a bad dualer, can't even rubut against the right person? Who needs to disprove this guy seriously. He reveils his own faulths without any effort of my part. :mrgreen: I can't take his credit. :lol:
 
stsburns said:
Such a bad dualer, can't even rubut against the right person? Who needs to disprove this guy seriously. He reveils his own faulths without any effort of my part. :mrgreen: I can't take his credit. :lol:

Huh? Of all the posts on this thread, this is the one you reply to? And with an ad hominem to boot, the undisputed champion of stupid arguments. LOL indeed.
 
oldreliable67 said:
Assertions/opinions versus facts: To make this assertion as a statement of fact really requires some cite or substantiation that your assertion is more than merely your opinion. As it reads, that statement is merely your opinion (and you are certainly entitled to it). Either provide support for your assertion(s) or readers are free to take your statements as your opinion and accord to it commensurate credibility.

Dude, of course it's my opinion. This in an incredibly pompous statement on your part, because it implies that your statements are not "your opinion" but substantiated fact. If you have "facts" that contradict my "opinion" then please present them, and spare me the vapid rhetorical lessons.

oldreliable67 said:
Back to the substance of your comment: The resolution authorized the Pres to make that decision. He made it. The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't change the fact that the resolution gave him the authority to make the assessment and the decision that resulted from that assessment.

This is a straw man. The claim made repeatedly by Bush is that Democrats who voted for the resolution, voted "for the war" which is disengenuous at best. Congress didn't vote to remove Saddam from power. It voted to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq" and to "enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq."

Did Bush really need authorization from Congress to defend us against Iraq, or anyone else? Isn't that already part of his job? The Iraq resolution was a political trap set by Republicans to ensnare Democrats. If the resolution had read "to overthrow the government of Iraq, a soverign nation that had not attacked us, by military force, killing and wounding thousands of American soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, and mire the U.S. in an unwinnable quagmire in pursuit of some highly dubious, uncertain 'victory,' which could very well backfire and unleash a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences, thus creating the very threat the U.S. purports to be fighting," then Bush's claim that Democrats voted for the war would be correct.
 
argexpat said:
Huh? Of all the posts on this thread, this is the one you reply to? And with an ad hominem to boot, the undisputed champion of stupid arguments. LOL indeed.
Sorry you've been demoted to kindergarden. Go play with your toys, and try to keep out of trouble. :monkey
 
argexpat said:
Dude, this is your rebuttal? And you expect me to take you seriously? You're the Ashlee Simpson of debaters.
Huh? Speaking to someone who's never on this site, telling me how to debate? I THINK NOT!!!! Go smoke your Buddah and then debate.
 
implies that your statements are not "your opinion"

If I post something that is just my opinion, I try to remember to always say so. If you check around, you'll find many of my posts conclude with "Just my opinion - YMMV". (The "YMMV" is "Your Mileage May Vary"). I don't remember to do this 100% of the time, I admit. But if I post something that an unsubstantiated assertion on my part, I try to remember to state that it is.

Did Bush really need authorization from Congress to defend us against Iraq, or anyone else?

This statement and the rest of that paragraph is a wonderful exercise in contradictions. You make that statement then you ask why the President sought authorization from Congress before going into Iraq. You then proceed to complain that it was a 'political trap' set to ensnare Democrats. This is just exceedingly strange. Your whole paragraph is quite circular. One can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Bush had simply ignored Congress and gone into Iraq.

BTW, how did you feel about Bosnia? Kosovo? Somalia? Rwanda?
 
1) There is a false assumption underlying this argument, namely that Dems received the same intel as Bush (they didn't), but setting that aside, here are two reasons why this is a straw man..."


Forget individual bits of intel. As of 2000 , the Clinton Admin had concluded:

1. Saddam had chem and bio weapons.
2. Saddam was in pursuit of a nuke.

This is essentially what the BA said.

Are you saying that after 2000, it would be logical to conclude that Saddam would give up on 1 or 2?
 
einsteinJR said:
As of 2000 , the Clinton Admin had concluded:

1. Saddam had chem and bio weapons.
2. Saddam was in pursuit of a nuke.

That big liar!
 
oldreliable67 said:
This statement and the rest of that paragraph is a wonderful exercise in contradictions. You make that statement then you ask why the President sought authorization from Congress before going into Iraq.

No, I asked, "Did Bush really need authorization from Congress to defend us against Iraq, or anyone else?" As the commander-in-chief of the U.S. military, isn't that already his job? Had the resolution read, "to wage pre-emptive war against the sovereign nation of Iraq, which has not attacked us, and had nothing to do with September 11, and has been crippled and rendered toothless by a decade of sanctions and regular air strikes, because it may pose a threat to us at some point in the undetermined future, in violation of international law," then Bush's fallacious straw man argument would be correct.

Congress gave Bush the authority to load the gun. The decision to shoot it was his. He needs to take responsibility for this decision and quit passing the buck onto Congress and the CIA.

oldreliable67 said:
One can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Bush had simply ignored Congress and gone into Iraq.

Had Iraq actually attacked us, he already had the authority to do whatever needed to be done to defend the United States. Just like he did on 9/11 when he sat there dumbfounded for seven minutes while the U.S. was actually being attacked.

oldreliable67 said:
BTW, how did you feel about Bosnia? Kosovo? Somalia? Rwanda?

I know, you're going to tell me that Clinton didn't have Congressional authorization to go into Yugoslavia or Somalia. I've heard this specious argument from Republicans before. How I feel about these conflicts is irrelevant. If you've got a point to make, make it.
 

Congress gave Bush the authority to load the gun. The decision to shoot it was his. He needs to take responsibility for this decision and quit passing the buck onto Congress and the CIA.


Oh that's bull. What's the point of having the authority to load the gun if you're never going to shoot it.

The reason Congress's actoins are brought up is to remind everybody that the decison Bush made to invade Iraq was not some crazy scheme hateched up a cabal of five guys. It was debated exhaustively < i. e no 'rush ' to war> and it was the consensus it was the right thging to do.
 
expat,

As Bush so often likes to say, he's the commander in chief, and he asked for the authorization, so the burden was on him to use it wisely, which by any measure he did not.

Please consider the following:

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress[emphasis added], and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

There are lots and lots more examples of Dems making public statements in support of Bush seeking a Congressional resolution authorizing the use of force against Saddam. For an extensive listing, go here. It is a biased site, but in this case, it provides an extensive listing of quotes and references.

Bush complied with the wishes of Congress and asked for a resolution. He got it. He subsequently exercised the authority expressely given to him by the Constitution as Commander in Chief and the Congressional resolution. How was that a 'trap'?
 
Which the Democrats will brush it off their shoulders and call it political change of thinking. But despite their best efforts they can only suppress this information on TV. Also can't forget what they did to "Able Danger." I love it when parties try to look like the good guys?

Example: Party is this -> :devil: , but is percieved as this -> :bunny:



:lol:
 
expat,

Ted Kennedy, a politician if there ever was one, said,

This was made up in Texas, announced in January to the Republican leadership that war was going to take place and was going to be good politically. This whole thing was a fraud," the Massachusetts Democrat told the AP

Source.

Mary Jo Kopechne could not be reached for comment.
 
oldreliable67 said:
There are lots and lots more examples of Dems making public statements in support of Bush seeking a Congressional resolution authorizing the use of force against Saddam. For an extensive listing, go here. It is a biased site, but in this case, it provides an extensive listing of quotes and references.

oldreliable67,

If you've got other quotes, present them. I'm not going to do your research for you.

But your first quote is from a letter to Clinton, not Bush.

As for your Kerry quote, it's out of context, here's the full text:

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq , it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent''--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet.'' Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq , and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions."


oldreliable67 said:
Bush complied with the wishes of Congress and asked for a resolution. He got it. He subsequently exercised the authority expressely given to him by the Constitution as Commander in Chief and the Congressional resolution. How was that a 'trap'?

Bush asked Congress for the resolution, but don't take my word for it. Here's a quote for you, direct from the jackass's mouth:

"I have asked Congress to authorize the use of America's military, if it proves necessary, to enforce U.N. Security Council demands. Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable. The resolution will tell the United Nations, and all nations, that America speaks with one voice and is determined to make the demands of the civilized world mean something. Congress will also be sending a message to the dictator in Iraq: that his only chance -- his only choice is full compliance, and the time remaining for that choice is limited."


So according to Bush himself, he asked for the resolution, and a vote for it was NOT a "vote for war." He's saying precisely the opposite, that it’s a vote to put our money where our mouths are, to show Saddam and the UN that we mean business. That's how Bush sold the resolution, so he can’t now throw the vote back in Democrats’ faces, saying “You voted for the war.” Either he was lying then, or he's lying now. (We know he was lying then, because according Bob Woodward, he had already decided to attack Iraq on Sept. 12, so the whole resolution pantomime was just a charade.) And Democrats, including Kerrry, can rightly claim they were taking the president at his word and were not indeed "voting for war." Bush wanted a Congressional resolution to cover his ass if things went south, and to use as a cudgel in the upcoming election, which is exactly how he's using it now. That's why it was a trap.
 
argexpat said:
If you've got other quotes, present them. I'm not going to do your research for you.

Pay attention! Follow the link I provided!

Of course Bush asked for the resolution! That has been the procedure since, well, since there has been a procedure. Check and do your own research and you'll various congress-persons saying words to the effect that, "We're asking the President to bring us a resolution and we'll agree to it." I'm not going to do your research for you.

Where've you been lately? Conspicuous by your absence!
 
oldreliable67 said:
Pay attention! Follow the link I provided!

Of course Bush asked for the resolution! That has been the procedure since, well, since there has been a procedure. Check and do your own research and you'll various congress-persons saying words to the effect that, "We're asking the President to bring us a resolution and we'll agree to it." I'm not going to do your research for you.

Like I said, if you've got evidence, then present it. Here I've got Bush himself saying he asked for the resolution, and that it didn't mean war was imminent. Nothing you've posted here contradicts that.

But the issue here isn't who asked for the resolution. My original post was refuting the canard that a vote for the resolution was a "vote for war." By Bush's own account, it was not.

And here's another tidbit just in from the Bush Pro-War Myth Debunking Department:

Regarding his charge that "Congress saw the same inteligence," it's not true, and now a report from the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service confirms it. They compared the intelligence available to the White House with what Congress got and their conclusion is "there's really no comparison."

“The president and a small number of presidentially designated Cabinet-level officials, including the vice president -- in contrast to members of Congress -- have access to a far greater overall volume of intelligence and to more sensitive intelligence information, including information regarding intelligence sources and methods," the CRS says in a report distributed by Feinstein's office. Unlike members of Congress, the report says, the president and those who work for him "have the authority to more extensively task the intelligence community, and its extensive cadre of analysts, for follow-up information. As a result, the president and his most senior advisors arguably are better positioned to assess the quality of the community’s intelligence more accurately than is Congress."


oldreliable67 said:
Where've you been lately? Conspicuous by your absence!

I have a life, you know! :cool:
 
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