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10 Legal Problems with Roe-v-Wade

Felicity

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(with thanks to Susan E. Wills Esq.)



#1

Laws are supposed to be made in the legislative branch of our government--both congress and state legislatures. The role of the judicial branch of our government is merely to determine if a challenged law infringes upon a constitutionally protected right.

In the Roe-v-Wade (RvW) ruling, the court "struck down" Texas law by claiming that laws that prohibit a woman from seeking an abortion violate a woman's "right to privacy."

There is no such a right mentioned in the Constitution. Nor do the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, or 14th Amendments in any way imply "privacy."



Debate welcome.
 
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#s 2 through 10 are......

Why not vet them one at a time?

#1

If we do in fact have a right to privacy then why do we have to report our most private information to the government every April 15th else face jail time? And every 10 years I have to answer the most private questions in the census else face jail time.

So if there is a right to privacy then what exactly is private and where is that distinction made in the constitution or legal statute passed by the legislature?
 
If we do in fact have a right to privacy then why do we have to report our most private information to the government every April 15th else face jail time?

I do not know about you, but my "most private information" isn't anything I do with ten or twelve acquaintances and hundreds of strangers every single day. If yours is... there's something horribly wrong with your life.
 
I do not know about you, but my "most private information" isn't anything I do with ten or twelve acquaintances and hundreds of strangers every single day. If yours is... there's something horribly wrong with your life.

I'm sorry but I don't discuss my private financial or medical matters with ten or twelve acquaintances everyday and the people that I might, financial advisors, doctors, have a duty to uphold my privacy and I engage with them at my choice. The so-called right of privacy is like all our rights deals with government.

So try again, why do I have to give up my privacy when it comes to taxes and the census if there is an inherent right to privacy?

And if you believe they can in these more private matters then again what exactly is private and where is that distinction made in the constitution or legal statute passed by the legislature?

Please explain exactly what a "right to privacy" covers.
 
I'm sorry but I don't discuss my private financial or medical matters with ten or twelve acquaintances everyday and the people that I might, financial advisors, doctors, have a duty to uphold my privacy and I engage with them at my choice. The so-called right of privacy is like all our rights deals with government.

So try again, why do I have to give up my privacy when it comes to taxes and the census if there is an inherent right to privacy?

And if you believe they can in these more private matters then again what exactly is private and where is that distinction made in the constitution or legal statute passed by the legislature?

Please explain exactly what a "right to privacy" covers.

Presumably, it covers medical procedures involving your reproductive organs.
Or any medical procedures at all, for that matter.
 
Presumably, it covers medical procedures involving your reproductive organs.
Or any medical procedures at all, for that matter.

So right to privacy is only "right to privacy of your reproductive organs"? And my other medical procedures and what doctors I use and what medicines I take are reported on my income tax and if the IRS calls I have to take all the documentation into them without appeal.

So why is it called a right to privacy when there is not such right?
 
#s 2 through 10 are......

As stinger said...I'm aiming to "vet them one at a time"




The main point in PROBLEM #1 is actually twofold--
A) there is no "explicit or implied right to privacy" stated in the Constitution.
B) It is not the role of the Supreme Court to do ANYTHING but consistantly interpret the Constitution.


RvW states this (edited for brevity):
VIII
The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, ...the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment,......These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," ....
This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.



I think it is important to note that in deciding the interpretation is broad enough to encompass abortion, the court has already dismissed the question concerning the protection the 14th amendment may or may not provide the fetus in coming to that conclusion. It is a disordered logical progression--the personhood of the fetus must be determined prior to the courts ability to rule whether abortion can be considered a privacy issue.


Further in Roe:
The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. ....

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation. ....


Appellant, as has been indicated, claims an absolute right that bars any state imposition of criminal penalties in the area. Appellee argues that the State's determination to recognize and protect prenatal life from and after conception constitutes a compelling state interest. As noted above, we do not agree fully with either formulation.


So even within the argument, the court says they are not convinced by this argument that there is an unlimited body soverignty AND they dismiss without consideration (at this point) the question of the Constitution's application to the life in-utero to arrive at ANY right to privacy for the woman.

It is convoluted and flawed logic.
 
So there's no right to privacy? Can we get that in writing?

I've got some stuff I'd like to see to.
 
As stinger said...I'm aiming to "vet them one at a time"

Alright,

A pregnant woman has the right to be secure in her person and papers against unlawful searches. "Person" = "body" and "papers" = "medical records", so both are protected under the 4th.

The state may only infringe on that right when it has a "compelling interest" to do so. RvW section 11 says that state does have such a "compelling interest", so a state is free to regulate abortion as it sees fit.

Next.
 
Alright,

A pregnant woman has the right to be secure in her person and papers against unlawful searches. "Person" = "body" and "papers" = "medical records", so both are protected under the 4th.

The state may only infringe on that right when it has a "compelling interest" to do so. RvW section 11 says that state does have such a "compelling interest", so a state is free to regulate abortion as it sees fit.

Next.

I'm sorry I'm missing the connection between conducting a search of the woman, right to privacy and whether killing an unborn child is legal or not. Do only women have a right to privacy?
 
I'm sorry I'm missing the connection between conducting a search of the woman, right to privacy and whether killing an unborn child is legal or not. Do only women have a right to privacy?

According to the letter of RvW, the state has a 'compelling interest' in the potential life of the unborn and therefore my regulate the abortive procedure, even when doing so will infringe on the woman's right to be secure in her person and papers.

The argument can also be made that the letter of RvW gives the state the authority to force the abortion against the mother's will, but I'll not be illustrating that Pro-Abortion argument because it would empower real life Pro-Abortionists like Future Incoming.

....that's also why I chose last minute to not argue the Pro-Abortion side in the Reverse Debates.....

Any hoo, any hypothetical rights of the unborn remain effectively irrelevant until "personhood" is established prenataly, hence the struggle coming out of SD, again.
 
According to the letter of RvW, the state has a 'compelling interest' in the potential life of the unborn ...

Right now we are discussing specifically the right to privacy. In that a woman has a right to abortion because she has a right to privacy. Several specific points have been made, please address those. What is the right to privacy, for example if I have a right to privacy why can the government intrude on everyones private financial matters by requiring us to report everything about them every year without due process or cause?
 
According to the letter of RvW, the state has a 'compelling interest' in the potential life of the unborn and therefore my regulate the abortive procedure, even when doing so will infringe on the woman's right to be secure in her person and papers.
.
Exactly--Roe-v-Wade is self-contradictory. It makes the case for the 14th Amendment to apply to the fetus, and then ignores it's own conclusion and arbitrarily puts a "trimester" limit on states' rights concerning regulating abortion. HUH?



Stinger--Jerry , I believe, is just focusing on the "compelling interest" that the government has in intruding upon privacy to a degree, such as with taxation of financial earnings. The point is, that the court said it is not an unlimited protection provided by the 14th amendment--that there should be a compelling state interest to impose upon an individual's personal rights--but then the court arbitrarily imposes it's own developmental measure upon the potential claim of the unborn human.
 
Right now we are discussing specifically the right to privacy. In that a woman has a right to abortion because she has a right to privacy. Several specific points have been made, please address those. What is the right to privacy, for example if I have a right to privacy why can the government intrude on everyones private financial matters by requiring us to report everything about them every year without due process or cause?

I've answered this twice already, so so this will be the third time:

The state can intrude on everyone's private financial matters because the state has a "compelling interest" to do so.

The state has a "compelling interest" in collecting taxes.
The state has a "compelling interest" in knowing various demographics of it's population.
The state has a "compelling interest" in the potential life of the unborn.

If you need me to say it a fourth time, it would be my pleasure, just let me know.
 
So....in the context of the Roe -v- Wade ruling....

Problem #1 is that the U.S. Supreme Court overstepped it's authority by basing the ruling NOT on the Constitution, but rather on case law, and in the process, actually created the 2nd legal problem with RvW....

Problem #2 is that in expanding its authority to interpret the Constitution through the case law, it wrongly ascribed to the 14th Amendment the creation of new rights, when in fact, the 14th amendment was intended to SECURE the rights of those marginalized by laws that were contradictory to the liberties already guaranteed by the Constitution. It did this by claiming that the 4th Amendment's "right of the people to be secure in their houses, papers, and effects" somehow (not explained in RvW) translates into a right to seek out and effect an abortion. The right to "be secure" in one's person, is very different from a right to go take action and DO something to your person, or even another person. The court cites the 14th Amendment, but fails to identify the connection between the Amendment's historical purpose to “secure” rights that are already explicitly stated in the Constitution, and the new “access” to rights that previously were not stated in the Constitution.

Problem #3 has already been mentioned in discussing Problem #1--The court takes on the role of the legislature and creates law when it arbitrarily imposes the "trimester framework."

In Justice Rehnquist’s dissent, he notes as much:

Nothing in the Court's opinion indicates that Texas might not constitutionally apply its proscription of abortion as written to a woman in that stage of pregnancy. Nonetheless, the Court uses her complaint against the Texas statute as a fulcrum for deciding that States may impose virtually no restrictions on medical abortions performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. In deciding such a hypothetical lawsuit, the Court departs from the longstanding admonition that it should never "formulate a rule of constitutional law broader than is required by the precise facts to which it is to be applied....... But the Court's sweeping invalidation of any restrictions on abortion during the first trimester is impossible to justify under that standard, and the conscious weighing of competing factors that the Court's opinion apparently substitutes for the established test is far more appropriate to a legislative judgment than to a judicial one.








To summarize so far...

Problem #1: SCOTUS overstepped its authority by acting beyond interpreting the Constitution.

Problem #2: SCOTUS failed to provide Constitutional context as to the “new right” to abortion created in the RvW ruling.

Problem #3: SCOTUS acted as a legislative body by imposing the “trimester framework.”
 
To summarize so far...

Problem #1: SCOTUS overstepped its authority by acting beyond interpreting the Constitution.

No.
The 14th. is a part of the constitution.

Problem #2: SCOTUS failed to provide Constitutional context as to the “new right” to abortion created in the RvW ruling.

No.
The 4th. is a part of the constitution.

Problem #3: SCOTUS acted as a legislative body by imposing the “trimester framework.”

Perhaps, but that framework establishes that the state may regulate abortion, so no harm don.
 
No.
The 14th. is a part of the constitution.



No.
The 4th. is a part of the constitution.



Perhaps, but that framework establishes that the state may regulate abortion, so no harm don.

Jerry...those are "no duh" responses. Address the argument if you disagree--not merely the sumarizing point.

For point 1, the issue is expanding the 14th to what is NOT in the Constitution.

For point 2, the issue is expanding the 4th to what is NOT ALREADY EXPLICITELY STATED in the Constitution.

For point 3, the issue is defining the "framework" at all--which is the state's legislative right--NOT A JUDICIAL right at all.
 
I've answered this twice already, so so this will be the third time:

The state can intrude on everyone's private financial matters because the state has a "compelling interest" to do so.


Compelling interest also require due process, and they must be COMPELLING. A requirement that we ALL must report ALL of our most private data to government on a yearly basis is not because it is compelling. You have no right to keep it private. They don't need a compelling reason. They just decided to make a law that we have to report it in order to pay taxes. We could have a flat tax and not have to report anything.

The state has a "compelling interest" in collecting taxes.

But not in requiring us to give up a basic right to privacy, if one exist. They can tax me without getting my private financial data, they are not compelled to they just choose to.

If the government by a mere act of legislation pass laws that require us to turn over our private data then there is no right to privacy concerning it.

They should have a compelling reason to do that and not just so they can get to more of our money.

The state has a "compelling interest" in knowing various demographics of it's population.

That trumps a "right" to privacy? Compellling means more than just desire.

Could you imagine the government saying we have a compelling interest to take up all guns? So they take them up, they had a compelling reason. Stop crime and murder (now they are liberals so they actually think it would work and it is a compelling reason) There would be an uproar. There is a right to keep and bear arms.

The government can get your private data because there is no right that it be kept private.

The state has a "compelling interest" in the potential life of the unborn.

Some would agree, but then there is an expressed right to life.
 
That trumps a "right" to privacy? Compellling means more than just desire.

Could you imagine the government saying we have a compelling interest to take up all guns? So they take them up, they had a compelling reason. Stop crime and murder (now they are liberals so they actually think it would work and it is a compelling reason) There would be an uproar. There is a right to keep and bear arms.
This is very much part of the problem of RvW--it makes a claim of an un specified right and calls it a "fundamental right" (That's legal problem #4) and I'll get to that after work today....) And then does NOTHING to actually defend the claim that the Constitution specifically address such issues as abortion. As you note--the right to bear arms is EXPLICIT in the Constitution...The right to be "SECURE" is EXPLICIT....A person's right to life is EXPLICIT in the 14th Amendment...but then the Court arbitrarily decides who IS a person by narrowly reading that term to exclude the unborn (legal problem #5, which I will also get to after work).

This defining a "right to privacy" that is not explicit in the Constitution, and then ruling that this implied right actually creates a new liberty to allow one to act outside of public view actually creates a situation where there is never a compelling reason for the government to intervene in ANY individual’s behavior. The liberty interest is never explained in Roe--and never specifically the hardship presented in pregnancy--just some stuff about how tough it is to be a mom and how ACTUAL (as opposed to potential) motherhood can cause psychological and financial distress. By that reasoning, what state interest could stop a woman from killing her toddler? That toddler is more of an imminent threat to the mother's psychological and financial well-being than a two month fetus. Furthermore--this motherhood "burden" doesn't even actually exist because there is already a non-lethal means to resolving the "problem": adoption.
 
So again I have to ask those who believe it actually exist, what exactly is this "right to privacy" what does it cover, why can the government require we give up privacy of our most personal information and where is the "compelling interest" clause in the constitution, or was it something made up too?
 
Jerry...those are "no duh" responses. Address the argument if you disagree--not merely the sumarizing point.

You're telling me that I am not adressing the arguments, but that is what I have don with my every post here, so I don't know what more you want.

For point 1, the issue is expanding the 14th to what is NOT in the Constitution.

Since the 14th. IS a part of the constitution (lets not have a word war over what an "amendment" is, please), the problem you are claiming here is in expanding the 14th. beyond what is in the 14th.

You might make the argument that there is no Constitutional basis for the 14th., and you would be correct, as the origins of the 14th. come from the DoI and a common understanding of the Natural Law premise, but that's another thread.

I disagree that RvW makes an error here because the right to be secure in ones person (= body) and papers (=medical records) is established in the 14th.

For point 2, the issue is expanding the 4th to what is NOT ALREADY EXPLICITELY STATED in the Constitution.

RvW did not create any "right to abortion".
This is a common PC misunderstanding, which has been forwarded as a truth, which has in turn has lead to the abuse or RvW, which I oppose.

RvW declared the Texas abortive regulations to be too broadly interpretable, and thus too restrictive. Given that and the fact that "personhood" could not be defined prenataly, the state, therefore, could not prove a “compelling intrist”, and Roe's 4th. Amendment rights could not be infringed upon by the state.

For point 3, the issue is defining the "framework" at all--which is the state's legislative right--NOT A JUDICIAL right at all.

For the casual reader, here is that framework:
RvW section 11, 1;
1. A state criminal abortion statute of the current Texas type, that excepts from criminality only a life-saving procedure on behalf of the mother, without regard to pregnancy stage and without recognition of the other interests involved, is violative of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life [410 U.S. 113, 165] may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.

Persuent to Article 3, section 2 of the Constitution....
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State;--between Citizens of different States;--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

...SCOTUS had the authority to declare that the states can regulate abortion.
 
Compelling interest also require due process, and they must be COMPELLING. A requirement that we ALL must report ALL of our most private data to government on a yearly basis is not because it is compelling. You have no right to keep it private. They don't need a compelling reason. They just decided to make a law that we have to report it in order to pay taxes. We could have a flat tax and not have to report anything.

But not in requiring us to give up a basic right to privacy, if one exist. They can tax me without getting my private financial data, they are not compelled to they just choose to.

If the government by a mere act of legislation pass laws that require us to turn over our private data then there is no right to privacy concerning it.

They should have a compelling reason to do that and not just so they can get to more of our money.

That trumps a "right" to privacy? Compellling means more than just desire.

Could you imagine the government saying we have a compelling interest to take up all guns? So they take them up, they had a compelling reason. Stop crime and murder (now they are liberals so they actually think it would work and it is a compelling reason) There would be an uproar. There is a right to keep and bear arms.

The government can get your private data because there is no right that it be kept private.

Some would agree, but then there is an expressed right to life.

What can I say?
I support the flat tax and you make another good argument for it.

Should mandatory gov. surveys be trimmed? Perhaps, but not eliminated.

The state has a compelling interest in protecting it's citizen's right to over through it, but that's another thread.
 
So again I have to ask those who believe it actually exist, what exactly is this "right to privacy" what does it cover, why can the government require we give up privacy of our most personal information and where is the "compelling interest" clause in the constitution, or was it something made up too?

"Compelling interest" isn't a constitutional claws, it's a logical test.

I have used it recently to demonstrate how gay marriage will become legal if it is argued on the basis of gender, but will not become legal if it is argued on the basis of sexual orientation.

Please allow me an indulgence:


[......]
Until that time, the only way to pose a legal claim of discrimination is by if what you claim to be discriminated against is a "fundamental right" ( this is where Navy I and I are about to go), the reason for discrimination is beyond your control ( this is where all those "born-that-way, nu-uh, yeah huh" arguments come from) and there is no "compelling state interest" for the state to infringe on that right.

Marriage is "fundamental right".
Race is involuntary.
There is no compelling interest in "maintaining racial purity".

= interracial ban is unconstitutional.

Marriage is a "fundamental right".
Gender is involuntary.
There is no compelling state interest in maintaining traditional marriage.

= same-sex marriage bans are unconstitutional.

***
Free period is over, so I'll post my source when I get home.
Later.
 
What can I say?
I support the flat tax and you make another good argument for it.

On that we agree, but the fact remains you have no constitutional right to privacy which on it's face would prohibit the government from mandating I turn over my private financial data to them so they could make sure I am paying my taxes. They do not need to show cause nor get a warrant.

Should mandatory gov. surveys be trimmed? Perhaps, but not eliminated.

And they can ask those questions and require us by law to supply the private information because it violates no right.
 
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