1 Ohio school, 4 bullied teens dead at own hand

[Hatuey]

Are you done putting words in my mouth and point out where I said that bullying does not happen in private schools?

So then what exactly is your argument? I'm curious to know.

 

[Patria Antiqua]

I remember being bullied in private school quite vivdly. I'd rather go after a havering school board than try to get the son of a "donor family" disciplined.

 

[The_Patriot]

So then what exactly is your argument? I'm curious to know.

My argument is, "This is just one of the many excuses people use for having public indoctrination centers. If kids didn't go to school they wouldn't learn how to socialize."

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Are you done putting words in my mouth and point out where I said that bullying does not happen in private schools?

My exact words were, "Bullies don't last long in private schools." By my own statement I admit that there is bullying in private schools, but I stated that they are not in it for very long if people do what is expected of them by reporting the bullying to a parent or a faculty member.

My response stands:

If the student in a public or private school does not identify the individuals involved, and if there is no evidence that the bullying actually occurred, it devolves into a he said/she said situation and nothing happens. A lot of bullying is covert and teachers don't see it, or if they do see it, they may not even realize what is going on. Kids calling each other names, they don't do that where teachers can hear, if they're at all smart. Kids make arrangements to fight off school grounds so they can't be suspended, as well.

 

[Your Star]

My argument is, "This is just one of the many excuses people use for having public indoctrination centers. If kids didn't go to school they wouldn't learn how to socialize."

So schools are in your mind, not places of learning, but public indoctrination centers?

Also, how is not learning how to socialize a good thing?

 

[Hatuey]

My argument is, "This is just one of the many excuses people use for having public indoctrination centers. If kids didn't go to school they wouldn't learn how to socialize."

Ah so it's a strawman argument. Very clever.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

So then what exactly is your argument? I'm curious to know.

From what I can see, it looks like:

1. The gummint schools are EVIL and cause kids to kill themselves.

2. Kids learn how to be bullies in public school.

 

[Hatuey]

The gummint schools are EVIL and cause kids to kill themselves.

I think what he fails to understand is that there are a myriad of studies used by current education professionals which prove that socializing can and happens in healthy learning environments and not a specific learning environment. Children who are homeschooled socialize just as well as children who are not. The point of public schools is to give those who can't actually afford to go to a private school, a chance at an education.

Creating a healthy learning environment means schools should actually clamp down on bullying and I fully support zero tolerance policies. However, as with everything in schools, public or private, it's not going to be an easy target. But as long as he gets to argue a strawman about the evils of us Librulz, I guess it's all good.

 

[The_Patriot]

My response stands.

Your response is a strawman.

So schools are in your mind, not places of learning, but public indoctrination centers?

Also, how is not learning how to socialize a good thing?

Many teachers, like John Gatto, have written volumes that public schools do not teach but indoctrinate.

Socialization occurs naturally without being forced on the child since the child socializes on their own terms.

Ah so it's a strawman argument. Very clever.

I'm only repeating one of the many arguments pro-public indoctrination centers espouse on why we need them.

 

[Jetboogieman]

I'm only repeating one of the many arguments pro-public indoctrination centers espouse on why we need them.

The fact that you would even use that term, leads me to the conclusion that your world view is so far removed from the general public, that your opinion hardly matters.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Your response is a strawman.

Private schools, just like public schools, have the same difficulties in responding to bullying. Much of it is covert, there is no evidence that it happened, and a lot of the time, kids won't speak up and name names about the person who is harassing them. There is ZERO difference in the ability of public/private schools to respond to bullying.

Your attempt to use this tragedy as a bully pulpit to honk the horn of your ridiculous beliefs is also duly noted for the repugnant act it is.

Stay classy, Patriot.

 

[The_Patriot]

I think what he fails to understand is that there are a myriad of studies used by current education professionals use which prove that socializing can and happens in healthy learning environments and not a specific learning environment. Children who are homeschooled socialize just as well as children who are not. The point of public schools is to give those who can't actually afford to go to a private school, a chance at an education. But as long as you get to argue a strawman about the evils of us Librulz.

If you actually cared about the quality of education that students receive then you would support private schooling/home schooling by removing the taxes to keep public schools open. The point of public schools is not to teach nor give them an education. The history of public education in the US is all about indoctrinating children to fit into the mold that society wants them to be in. Learning is optional as evidenced by test scores of public education in the US and against other industrialized countries.

 

[The_Patriot]

Private schools, just like public schools, have the same difficulties in responding to bullying. Much of it is covert, there is no evidence that it happened, and a lot of the time, kids won't speak up and name names about the person who is harassing them. There is ZERO difference in the ability of public/private schools to respond to bullying.

Your attempt to use this tragedy as a bully pulpit to honk the horn of your ridiculous beliefs is also duly noted for the repugnant act it is.

Stay classy, Patriot.

I will bow out as per your request.

 

[Hatuey]

I'm only repeating one of the many arguments pro-public indoctrination centers espouse on why we need them.

Which "pro-public indoctrination centers" are these? Show us some?

 

[Hatuey]

If you actually cared about the quality of education that students receive then you would support private schooling/home schooling by removing the taxes to keep public schools open.

What we have above is called a non-sequitur. Quality of teaching and taxation have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Example, Sweden has an education system which essentially outperforms the American system even though their level of taxation is also higher. The issue comes with the corruption of the education system at the top. One where people are allowed to let their political ideologies influence decision making. Compulsory membership of teacher unions for example should be scrapped. Policies which make it nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher should be scrapped too. Once again, the problem is not taxation.

The point of public schools is not to teach nor give them an education.

What we have above is called an opinion. Not a fact. You must remember this.

The history of public education in the US is all about indoctrinating children to fit into the mold that society wants them to be in.

Really? And which classes would 'mold' these children into what society wants them to be? English? Math? Maybe chemistry? Social studies perhaps?

Learning is optional as evidenced by test scores of public education in the US and against other industrialized countries.

And finally what we have here is the argument which contradicts your first statement. Taxation in most industrialized countries surpasses that of the U.S. in many cases and yet we find that these same countries manage to outperform the U.S. academically. So what is it? Either taxation and quality of education are related or they are not.

Tax rates:

Education:

http://www.geographic.org/country_ranks/educational_score_performance_country_ranks_2009_oecd.html

The United states lags behind most industrialized nations with far more socialized systems.

So is quality of education related to taxation? Or is it not?

 

[MaggieD]

schools have zero tolerance policies, and can expel kids almost at will. where do you live that your schools have to allow misbehavior?

Your area is not typical in large cities. Chicago has atrocious behavior problems. Coppers in the schools. Metal detectors at the doors. Lockdowns. They don't expel the students. Why? It would effect their funding. At least that's how it looks to the outsider. Chicago public schools are a failure.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

If you actually cared about the quality of education...

Logical Fallacies» Appeal to Pity

Can you argue WITHOUT logical fallacies? I somehow doubt it.

The point of public schools is not to teach nor give them an education.

Evidence? It certainly appears that a good 7 hours per day of teaching is occuring in most public schools. :mrgreen:

The history of public education in the US is all about indoctrinating children to fit into the mold that society wants them to be in.

Subjectivist fallacy.

Learning is optional as evidenced by test scores of public education in the US and against other industrialized countries.

Red herring. Other industrialized countries ALSO rely on public educational systems.

Perhaps logic wasn't covered in your home school.

 

[The_Patriot]

Logical Fallacies» Appeal to Pity

Can you argue WITHOUT logical fallacies? I somehow doubt it.



Evidence? It certainly appears that a good 7 hours per day of teaching is occuring in most public schools. :mrgreen:



Subjectivist fallacy.



Red herring. Other industrialized countries ALSO rely on public educational systems.

Perhaps logic wasn't covered in your home school.

You asked me to not use this thread to make statements and I complied with your wishes only to have you remark about my statements. I guess that you're unable to do what you asked me to do.

I already posted up my documentation under the link of John Gatto to his book The Underground History of American Education. I suggest you read it.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's horse****. I went to private school for a little bit.

The bully was strong there, in some ways stronger.

I went from one private grade school (coed thru 6 grade then all girls) to another where the upper school was boys. Being a new kid in 7th grade and small (I didn't hit 6-1 until a big growth spurt in 10th grade) I was picked on. well two things happened. My late father, a former Golden gloves finalist, taught me how to box and after busting a few noses, people stopped screwing with me and when four kids jumped on me, a senior who was once picked on himself, and was now the star running back on the football team, trashed three of the four and the last guy was the wimpiest of the four and the senior sort of stood guard at the door of the class room where I gave that boy a boxing lesson. When I was an upperclassman and now one of the tallest guys in the class, I did the same sort of thing. sure some kids were picked on more than others but at a small school everyone knew what was going on and it never got out of hand and if someone was out of line, other students generally took care of the problem before the headmaster got involved.

at big public schools things are far worse, especially at ones where many of the students don't give a rats ass.

 

[Jetboogieman]

I went from one private grade school (coed thru 6 grade then all girls) to another where the upper school was boys. Being a new kid in 7th grade and small (I didn't hit 6-1 until a big growth spurt in 10th grade) I was picked on. well two things happened. My late father, a former Golden gloves finalist, taught me how to box and after busting a few noses, people stopped screwing with me and when four kids jumped on me, a senior who was once picked on himself, and was now the star running back on the football team, trashed three of the four and the last guy was the wimpiest of the four and the senior sort of stood guard at the door of the class room where I gave that boy a boxing lesson. When I was an upperclassman and now one of the tallest guys in the class, I did the same sort of thing. sure some kids were picked on more than others but at a small school everyone knew what was going on and it never got out of hand and if someone was out of line, other students generally took care of the problem before the headmaster got involved.

at big public schools things are far worse, especially at ones where many of the students don't give a rats ass.

Depends on the student body. Area. Affluence.

I had less bullying at a public school in Canada, then I had at 150 year old boarding school in Britain...

 

[Catz Part Deux]

You asked me to not use this thread to make statements

You are misquoting me. And, your logic sucks. For that, no apology is sufficient.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

at big public schools things are far worse

Large schools are a problem. The greater the school size and anonymity of students, the more they will have problems with this sort of thing. However, there are large private schools with similar problems.

I don't believe that there is any research that suggests that bullying is a public school only issue, or that the problem is substantially worse in public schools.

 

[The_Patriot]

You are misquoting me. And, your logic sucks. For that, no apology is sufficient.

I didn't expect you to apologize nor did I want you to. However, by continuing to reply to my posts you have become what you said I did.

Your attempt to use this tragedy as a bully pulpit to honk the horn of your ridiculous beliefs is also duly noted for the repugnant act it is.

Stay classy or not since the choice is yours.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Barbara Coloroso, a national anti-bullying expert...

Seriously? :lamo

 

[Catz Part Deux]

They don't expel the students. Why? It would effect their funding. At least that's how it looks to the outsider. Chicago public schools are a failure.

"the way it looks to an outsider" isn't exactly evidence.