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‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

Mina

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Probably most of us are forced to live with a body that does not conform to our preferences.
Yep. And I don't want people telling me what I can and can't do with it. If, say, I have a big hairy mole right on the tip of my nose, and I want it taken off, I want to have that right. Even if you can find an occasional person who had a big hairy mole taken off and later regretted it, I still want that decision to be mine and not yours.
 

CLAX1911

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Yep. And I don't want people telling me what I can and can't do with it.
so what 14 year old that wants to be a prostitute should be stopped a 14-year-old that wants a swastika tattooed on their forehead shouldn't be stopped you don't want people telling you what to do with your body that should be permitted right?
If, say, I have a big hairy mole right on the tip of my nose, and I want it taken off, I want to have that right. Even if you can find an occasional person who had a big hairy mole taken off and later regretted it, I still want that decision to be mine and not yours.
We're not talking about adults here. Or are we talking about dealing with deformities. We're talking about life altery decisions and you can play this game where I don't want people telling me what to do with my body but in the same breath you have to be okay with a 15 year old getting a swastika tattoo under forehead because it's their money they should be allowed to do with it what they want right?
 

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the question is why does it creep in and I've had this happen to me from two posters on this forum and it's always because I tend to take a more reserved position about some of these issues. And the only two people who have done this to me on this forum have been people that vehemently disagree with me or really disagree with a caricature of my position that's kind of propped up by straw man fallacies.

So they're not questioning my sexuality because of something that I believe or think they're questioning it because I don't agree with them and they can't argue any other way.
I'm definitely not a pot stirrer. But I'm not guilty of anything I've been accused of I've been told how much I hate all sorts of people because I've simply have an opinion.

I don't think it's suspicion that someone is being played, because it always seems to be when people become very frustrated because I'm not accepting certain things they're saying or I'm pointing out in strawman fallacies they are making more trying to explain what my position really is and how whoever I'm saying it to has gotten it wrong.

It's more like a defensive attack. It's like I'm not thinking the way I'm supposed to because of my sexuality. It seems to be this idea that everybody that fits a certain demographic I'll have to think the same way. And if you go rogue and think for yourself and what you think is different than what is expected then there's a problem.

It's almost like a form of attempted blackmail.
Basically, its queer version of 'Uncle Toming' that you are discussing broadly here, and what I interpret as a list of your hunches on the possible motives certainly are some obvious options when it happens to more conservative voices withint the demographic. Its hard to determine which is which in any specific case, but its not hard to determine the potential affects of a concerted effort. The effect is to silence a minority 'conservative' position/ideology among members of the queer community in the short-term and delegitimize those positions, and in the long term impact representation and clout outside of a very narrow selection of political cliques. Do we really want to be in a position where we have no voices or influence beyond a progressive left of center alliance? Do we really want to live in an echo chamber of left of center positions and rhetoric that a few in the LBGTQ community may be working to create and amplify?

I get it, Clax. I do get it whether we are talking black conservatives, women conservatives, or queer conservatives.
 
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Mina

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so what 14 year old that wants to be a prostitute should be stopped a 14-year-old that wants a swastika tattooed on their forehead shouldn't be stopped

The nice thing is that if a 14-year-old wants to be a prostitute or to get a swastika tattoo, nothing is lost making her wait a few years to decide when she reaches adulthood. She can do it then, having lost nothing but time.... and I'm unaware of any evidence that not being a prostitute or not getting a tattoo causes people severe emotional trauma in a way that forcing them to live for years in a body that conflicts with their internal sense of gender is said to do.

What makes medical transition of minors a thornier issue is puberty. The longer you wait for such treatment, the less effective the treatment will be, in the sense that the body will have undergone massive and irreversible physical changes by the time the person is an adult. Plus, as I mentioned, the claim is that merely being forced to live in that conflicting body for years can cause such emotional trauma that suicide or other self harm is greatly increased.

So, it isn't a question with a simple solution, the way those other two examples are. Merely postponing the decision doesn't leave the person in more or less the same place a few years later, when she can decide as an adult. A decision to postpone transforming the body in one direction medically is a decision to transform the body in another direction by way of normal hormonal processes, with potentially permanent psychological harm resulting.

Perhaps that's better. Perhaps not. That's the evidence I'm hoping to see to take a position.

Anyway, a better analogy would be whether a 14-year-old should be allowed to get an abortion. That has that same "ticking bomb" set-up for a transgender person dealing with the changes that will come with puberty, along with the same extremely high psychological stakes. You can't really just postpone the abortion decision until the person is an adult, because postponement is effectively a choice to force huge long-term physical and psychological consequences on the person.
 

CLAX1911

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The nice thing is that if a 14-year-old wants to be a prostitute or to get a swastika tattoo, nothing is lost making her wait a few years to decide when she reaches adulthood.
But if they want to chop off their genitals we can't wait head did people who have done that regret it it possibly commits suicide why is there suicide worth less than anybody elses? Why don't you care about those people is it because you can't use them for your virtue signal?
 

CLAX1911

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Basically, its queer version of 'Uncle Toming' that you are discussing broadly here, and what I interpret as a list of your hunches on the possible motives certainly are some obvious options when it happens to more conservative voices withint the demographic.
no it's not Uncle Toming it's shunning. It's a cult-like behavior. You don't think like we think you should based on something about you so therefore you can't claim that you belong to a sexual orientation.


Its hard to determine which is which in any specific case, but its not hard to determine the potential affects of a concerted effort.
well I would ask you this could conservatives be gay can liberals be straight if the answer to either one of those questions is yes that it doesn't seem like there's that much of an issue here.
The effect is to silence a minority 'conservative' position/ideology among members of the queer community in the short-term and delegitimize those positions, and in the long term impact representation and clout outside of a very narrow selection of political cliques. Do we really want to be in a position where we have no voices or influence beyond a progressive left of center alliance? Do we really want to live in an echo chamber of left of center positions and rhetoric that a few in the LBGTQ community may be working to create and amplify?
well people who are LGBT want many different things. We can't all have a single voice that would mean we're a cult. Is the acceptance has increased I would say there's not really even a community anymore. But we were a community we were a community of outcasts we were all we had now we have gay weddings and our parents show up to celebrate with us many of us retain our family and don't need to seek a new family in a community.

I can understand how losing that close knit component is missed by a lot of older guys but the fact that we don't need it now it's a good thing
I get it, Clax. I do get it whether we are talking black conservatives, women conservatives, or queer conservatives.
well well it's not just conservatives you're blacks or gays I see it at other areas too. Not another forum are basically being called and Uncle Tom conservatives cuz I'm gay.

So it's not unique to the left it's not unique really to any specific group. It seems to be something that happens when someone disagrees with something you say. It's more about viewpoints it's a no true Scotsman fallacy it's an appeal to purity.
 

Mina

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But if they want to chop off their genitals we can't wait head did people who have done that regret it it possibly commits suicide why is there suicide worth less than anybody elses? Why don't you care about those people is it because you can't use them for your virtue signal?
I haven't suggested that potential suicides by those who regret it are worth less. Quite the contrary. I've spoken in terms of the possibility of elevated suicide rates among those forced to wait -- I'm talking about an elevation relative to what the rate would be if not forced to wait, obviously.

Just to throw some hypothetical numbers out there, let's say that out of 1000 people in that situation, 95% would later feel transitioning was the right choice and 5% would later regret it. And say that among those who would later see it as the right decision, making them wait until adulthood to make the call would drive up suicide rates by enough that 4% of those would kill themselves as a result. And say that among those who would later decide that it was the wrong decision, allowing them to make that decision prematurely would drive suicide rates up enough that 30% of them would kill themselves as a result. Well then, postponement would mean 38 resulting suicides, and not postponing would mean 15 resulting suicides. Between the two options, you could save 23 lives by not forcing them to postpone.

I'm not saying those are the actual numbers. Maybe far more wind up regretting it than I assumed. Maybe suicide rates among those who have to wait are even lower than I imagined. Maybe, between those two changes, you'd save more lives by forcing postponement of the decision to adulthood. I don't know. But where that balance comes down is absolutely critical in deciding which course does less harm.

I think the only way around that reasoning is some form of the "trolley problem" where you imagine harm doesn't count if it's the result of passivity rather than action... basically, saying that the suicide of a person who DIDN'T transition counts less than that of a person who did. I reject that reasoning, despite it being very attractive to people like you who want to virtue signal.
 

CLAX1911

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I haven't suggested that potential suicides by those who regret it are worth less.
Yes you have. If we bust proceed with these operations that those suicides are worth less.

Either we need to be more reserved and help youngsters cope it's the body they have for the ones that get take it up in it that shouldn't be aren't worth anything you can't have it both ways.
 

Mina

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Yes you have.
I definitely haven't. Go back and reread, trying to spot the place you think I suggested that. When you fail to find it, think about why that might be.


Either we need to be more reserved and help youngsters cope it's the body they have for the ones that get take it up in it that shouldn't be aren't worth anything you can't have it both ways.
I'm not sure what you were trying to say there.
 

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In the past you've accused him of only being gay when it suits him.
I didn't criticize him for being gay. I wondered why if he was gay then why was he such a hypocrite to other members of the LGBT demographic. He can get gay and have 3+ boyfriends and I'll defend his right to be as gay as he wants. I just don't care. I do care about people being hypocrites.
 

Phys251

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You yourself stated a while back that minors should have trans treatment available to save their lives.

Care to deny it?

Your vague accusations don't refute my point. :)
 

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Blame them for decisions they made at age 12?? Don't blame the medical professionals who have been brainwashed to think they must "affirm" every child who claims to be transgender? Don't blame the transgender activists who will accuse you of murder if you fail to "affirm" a child who claims to be transgender (because they are sure to commit suicide if not affirmed). Don't blame the parents who fell for this crazy crap?
They dont affirm every child.
 

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The reason minors live with their parents is so their parents can provide for and protect them. Because they have limited ability to take care of themselves.
I thought you were all for medical choice! Go snarf some ivermectin please.
 

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Probably most of us are forced to live with a body that does not conform to our preferences.
That might be your problem if you are not CIS and trying to force yourself to be CIS. Go talk to a psychologist and be very frank about your feelings. That is why that career exists. Height is not easy to change but weight is with proper methods, exercise and diet. Ive lost weight (5 lbs recently) just treating my anxiety because I was stress eating.
 

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Yep. And I don't want people telling me what I can and can't do with it. If, say, I have a big hairy mole right on the tip of my nose, and I want it taken off, I want to have that right. Even if you can find an occasional person who had a big hairy mole taken off and later regretted it, I still want that decision to be mine and not yours.

If a child had a big hairy mole and their parents agree to get it removed, that's fine, no one suffers. But if a child has a penis and wants it removed, that is very different. I am sure you can see the difference.
 

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If a child had a big hairy mole and their parents agree to get it removed, that's fine, no one suffers. But if a child has a penis and wants it removed, that is very different. I am sure you can see the difference.
Yes, I see a difference, in the sense that the mole probably doesn't strike near and dear to a person's sense of self-identity, so the suffering of being forced to continue to live with it for a few more years is probably not the kind of thing someone is going to kill themselves over, whereas being forced to live in a body you feel fundamentally conflicts with your identity in a way as intimate and psychologically meaningful as your gender could well lead to a suicide. That's why I'd want to see evidence for how this is playing out in practice, because I just don't have a good feel, at this point, for how much risk we're imposing on people by forcing them to wait for adulthood to transition.

My guess --and it's just an uninformed guess at this point-- is that we'll ultimately decide that the least damaging/risky option is to allow children who have had years-long desires to transition, and who pass certain psychological screenings, to have puberty-blocking chemicals until reaching age 18, along with reversible aspects of transition, but not to have any irreversible surgeries. But maybe I'm wrong. I'd need to see more evidence to have an informed opinion.
 

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If a child had a big hairy mole and their parents agree to get it removed, that's fine, no one suffers. But if a child has a penis and wants it removed, that is very different. I am sure you can see the difference.
Its not just the penis removed. It is gender dysphoria that is caused by a psychological gender identity (internal sense of gendered self) that is different from their biological gender. The penis is not removed but instead if it turned inside out to form the neo-vagina. It would be malpractice to cut it off because the nerves would be severed and as such there would be no feelings in the vagina. For someone who claimed in the past to have a PhD in psycholgioy you are astonishing ignorent of even basic psychological concepts.



How exactly do you plan to effectively treat gender dysphorioa without homones and the surgery if the patient desires and the Drs and psychologists determine that is the oroper couse of action with a diagnosis?
 

CLAX1911

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I definitely haven't. Go back and reread, trying to spot the place you think I suggested that. When you fail to find it, think about why that might be.



I'm not sure what you were trying to say there.
It seems like you're always going to err on the side of your virtue signal so there's no point in continuing this discussion.
 

LetsGoBrandon

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Try reading the article, it's not about being Anti-Trans. I am CERTIANLY not anti-trans, in the least. I am anti-rush people through, and very MUCH against accelerated transitioning of kids and younger people because I've seen, dealt with the cheerleader/push through okay? There is a great risk, great harm that can happen if someone is just pushed into things they aren't either ready for, or coerced into doing.
Unfortunately there are going to be an enormous number of kids making that mistake.. In my view medical professional that prescribes puberty blockers or performs a mastectomy on a minor for the purpose of gender reassignment is a quack and should have his or her medical license revoked. And the parents that allow that to go forward should have their head examined.
 

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Unfortunately there are going to be an enormous number of kids making that mistake..
Where is that evidence?

In my view medical professional that prescribes puberty blockers or performs a mastectomy on a minor for the purpose of gender reassignment is a quack and should have his or her medical license revoked. And the parents that allow that to go forward should have their head examined.

Where did you get your medical license (psychiatrist, endocrinologist or plastic surgeon) or Ph.D in psychology if you re going to make those claims?
Do you really think that a DR is going to throw away 10+ years of medical school and interneship in a specialty for a trans teenager when they can deny them care of there is a rational reason why they aren't a good candidate for the program, a prescription, or surgery. Drs carry millions of dollars worth of malpractice insurance for that reason and very seldom do you hear about those court decisions because the Drs are very careful.
 

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Where is that evidence?
The article Renae posted is a good start. Do you seriously think what happened with that girl will be rare?
Where did you get your medical license (psychiatrist, endocrinologist or plastic surgeon) or Ph.D in psychology if you re going to make those claims?
Do you really think that a DR is going to throw away 10+ years of medical school and interneship in a specialty for a trans teenager when they can deny them care of there is a rational reason why they aren't a good candidate for the program, a prescription, or surgery. Drs carry millions of dollars worth of malpractice insurance for that reason and very seldom do you hear about those court decisions because the Drs are very careful.
I don't need a medical license to determine that any medical professional who prescribes puberty blockers or performs a mastectomy on a minor for the purpose of gender reassignment is a quack. That's just common sense.
 

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The article Renae posted is a good start. Do you seriously think what happened with that girl will be rare?
It is very rare. Transgendered care has been happening for more than 60 years with only minor updates changes for new technology and experience. This is not a radical idea or an untested treatment protocol.


I don't need a medical license to determine that any medical professional who prescribes puberty blockers or performs a mastectomy on a minor for the purpose of gender reassignment is a quack. That's just common sense.

If you actually had a medical license, or even a reasonable knowledge of the subject of gender identity and gender dysphoria you could make a intelligent and informed reply on the various points instead of just calling a Dr who performs a treatment that you dont understand a quack.

What is the other equally effective treatment for gender dysphoria that has a success rate of more than 90%? No patient is required to do anything, ever. They can stop and walk away at any time for any reason. After the proper diagnosis the Drs and therapists explain the situation to a patient and give them their options, the risks of those treatments as well as what they can expect, and the adult patient or the patient and their guardian are free to make their decisions, one of which is to leave.
 
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CLAX1911

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THIS, please @Lisa and a few others PRO-Transitioning kids, read this. This is the thing I and others fear. This tells you what we are worried about. Even if you disagree, read the words of these kids.
This is a video I just stumbled upon on YouTube by Jordan Peterson particularly on this issue and I would like to know from a transgender perspective, what do you think about this?

 

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The article Renae posted is a good start. Do you seriously think what happened with that girl will be rare?
I see that she states that it's rare and it's going to become more common in it is much more common now than it ever has been so my thoughts is rare relative to what.


I think it's wishful thinking to protect a narrative.

the worst thing you can say to a woke person is that they're wrong. This is why they act like tyrants and deny reality when you confront them with something that is undeniable.

In this regard woke is like a religion and the system of obedience is shunning religions that shun are cults. If you ever wonder how someone can be this devoted to something that's clearly wrong think of Jim Jones or I'll run Hubbard these people have done all sorts of con jobs on people Jim Jones got a bunch of people to commit suicide.

Listen to you is do not approach members of The cult as though you're in adversary that's what they're expecting in fact that's what the cult hopes happens. It will be used to better pollute the minds of the people they have following them against you.

It's rather ironic that they call it woke.



I don't need a medical license to determine that any medical professional who prescribes puberty blockers or performs a mastectomy on a minor for the purpose of gender reassignment is a quack. That's just common sense.
In one of my previous posts (398) I included a video where Jordan Peterson a college professor of psychology if you don't know went on to describe transitioning kids as equal to sacrificing children. He utterly excoriates this idea that medical professionals know better than everyone else.

This is essentially an unquestionable doctrine that medical professionals are superior and they are always out for altruism and therefore everything they say must be accepted as fact. Unquestionable doctrine is also cult like behavior.

Woke is a cult.
 

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The only lesson here is like lot of things, you shouldn't rush in. Especially life changing decisions. No harm in waiting. From what I read, Chloe in the OP story was in too much of a hurry.

This is not vindication of every right-wing trans scare we've had foisted upon us lately.
 
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