‘He’s a small child’: Utah police shot a 13-year-old autistic boy after his mother called 911 for he

[bluesmoke]

Who called the police?

The mother.

 

[bluesmoke]

And what do those mental health pros do when the person with mental health issues does have a gun and is threatening people with it? Let them shoot people? You folks are crazy if you think there will not be people shot and killed by folks with "issues" when they try to disarm them. Then you'll all cry about he tragedy of some person getting killed by the person with "issues".

The context is of unarmed people though, depending on the situation, they may have an armed, trained member of Social Services with them or call for one. Kind of like reversing the typical makeup of a PERT, Psychiatric Emergency Response Team, where the team has one person trained to deal with people having mental issue but other regular LEO. Quite often, because there is not enough personnel, a PERT responds w/o the psych member.

 

[Somerville]

What's the word for something that is not a science but pretends to be?



The pertinent difference being?

Data.

Years of studying the weird ways humans behave provide information, SOME of which is replicable and found beneficial in treatment of patients with similar symptoms and behaviour.

 

[MaryP]

Asperger's is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD).

They shot a 13 year old with Aspbergers Geezus.

I know people who work with autistic kids in institutional settings. They are routinely injured by the kids, even broken bones. They are trained in "holds" to subdue them, but it ain't always easy. The average cop sure wouldn't know how or have the experience.

His mom called the police because she couldn't afford the crisis intervention team. Average Joe police shouldn't be expected to deal with these situations. And when we have universal healthcare to cover professional intervention, they won't need to be called.

Shooting him, though? Holy ****, was that inappropriate.

 

[AmNat]

The use of the scientific method, of theories and research vs simply believing things.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

I asked for a difference. You've identified a similarity.

Data.

Years of studying the weird ways humans behave provide information, SOME of which is replicable and found beneficial in treatment of patients with similar symptoms and behaviour.

Ah yes, "sometimes" replicability. "Sometimes" horoscopes are accurate.

 

[OlNate]

Look, this kid appears to be white. Since there is no racial reason to flip out about it can we at least wait until the investigation is done before we start flinging more poo at all cops?

No. For many people, support for BLM has more to do with the cops using inappropriate violence than it does with who it is being done against. That it happens mainly to black folks is just good old fashioned racism...but if the cops acted right in all situations, there would be no BLM, and no dead autistic kid. This simply reminds people that getting to root cause, aka cops not doing their job right, would fix a lot of problems.

 

[bluesmoke]

And what do those mental health pros do when the person with mental health issues does have a gun and is threatening people with it? Let them shoot people? You folks are crazy if you think there will not be people shot and killed by folks with "issues" when they try to disarm them. Then you'll all cry about he tragedy of some person getting killed by the person with "issues".

Please see my post #377. What you describe would be a LEO matter, not Social Services, though having someone trained to deal with such people would be a good person to be there also. That person could be from SS or from the PD, but LEO would be the authority whenever somebody is armed and threatening others.

 

[roguenuke]

No. For many people, support for BLM has more to do with the cops using inappropriate violence than it does with who it is being done against. That it happens mainly to black folks is just good old fashioned racism...but if the cops acted right in all situations, there would be no BLM, and no dead autistic kid. This simply reminds people that getting to root cause, aka cops not doing their job right, would fix a lot of problems.

To be clear, in this case, it does look like the boy will survive (last I read he was in critical condition but stable). That doesnt excuse the shooting and, barring additional info that shows a completely different scenario than what we currently know, the situation absolutely should have been handled much differently. Just correcting what I've seen a few times in this thread as mentions of his death when I dont think he died.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

 

[bluesmoke]

The police acted on the information they were given by the dispatcher - which was that a possibly mentally ill person was threatening others with a weapon. So I would say that if a person has a mental condition that prevents them from behaving normally in society without the need for 911 calls then they shouldn’t be integrated in society. 911 is not a free social service for mothers who cause violent distress in their mentally ill children.

They acted alright. They acted wrong. Now you're blaming it all on the mother. And saying 911 is not for such situation, though it is. This kind of **** just doesn't happen in other developed countries. Though the US is straining the definition of "developed" as respects law enforcement and gun related matters.

 

[Deuce]

Look, this kid appears to be white. Since there is no racial reason to flip out about it can we at least wait until the investigation is done before we start flinging more poo at all cops?

No, I will not wait. A cop shot a child when they were supposed to be coming to help. A police officer entered the situation in "deadly force" mode. I demand to know why, and how there will be accountability.

 

[Deuce]

The police said they were called to the scene on reports of an armed individual with mental issues threatening people with a weapon.

No weapon was found at the scene.

 

[Napoleon]

No weapon was found at the scene.

Hindsight.

 

[Lursa]

Hindsight.

They are supposed to confirm a weapon or lethal threat of any kind before using lethal force.

So I'm guessing your reply is just you forfeiting any argument related to the actual incident?

 

[Napoleon]

They are supposed to confirm a weapon or lethal threat of any kind before using lethal force.

So I'm guessing your reply is just you forfeiting any argument related to the actual incident?

He fled, they fired, and I don’t care. Follow instructions the first time given.

 

[Lursa]

He fled, they fired, and I don’t care. Follow instructions the first time given.

Nope. First, he's a juvenile. 2nd, they were told he was mentally challenged.

But most of all...the most basic of all guidelines is to identify a threat before firing. They failed. They were wrong. No one, not even cops, are allowed to kill without verifying a threat to themselves or others.

 

[Napoleon]

Nope. First, he's a juvenile. 2nd, they were told he was mentally challenged.

But most of all...the most basic of all guidelines is to identify a threat before firing. They failed. They were wrong. No one, not even cops, are allowed to kill without verifying a threat to themselves or others.

First, police do not exist to do the mother’s parenting for her or to act as social workers. They were dispatched for a person threatening others with a weapon. That person was not compliant and attempted to flee so he was shot. That is what police do and what I think they should do. Follow their lawful orders and if you’re wrongfully detained or arrested then you have recourse in civil court. Otherwise you can be shot. If those risks are not commiserate with the situation then stop calling the police for those issues.

 

[Mr Person]

Protect and Murder.

If a cop doesn't know that you are unarmed and even if you are a little kid running away from the cops, they can shoot you. Because they're scared. That's what we - in the land of the "brave" and the home of the "free" - say. Because we're that scared.




The ****?!

 

[Mr Person]

First, police do not exist to do the mother’s parenting for her or to act as social workers. They were dispatched for a person threatening others with a weapon. That person was not compliant and attempted to flee so he was shot. That is what police do and what I think they should do. Follow their lawful orders and if you’re wrongfully detained or arrested then you have recourse in civil court. Otherwise you can be shot. If those risks are not commiserate with the situation then stop calling the police for those issues.

Worthy of North Korea, Mr. "Moderate"

 

[Napoleon]

Protect and Murder.

If a cop doesn't know that you are unarmed and even if you are a little kid running away from the cops, they can shoot you. Because they're scared. That's what we - in the land of the "brave" and the home of the "free" - say. Because we're that scared.




The ****?!

No, what we say is that when a person is reported to be threatening others with a weapon they can’t be allowed to escape custody merely by running away from the responding officers.

 

[Mr Person]

No, what we say is that when a person is reported to be threatening others with a weapon they can’t be allowed to escape custody merely by running away from the responding officers.

Who is "we"?


PS: SCOTUS said quite a while ago that you cannot kill someone simply for escaping.

Start with https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/





PS: "moderate"? LOL. Why does anyone think that works.

 

[Napoleon]

Who is "we"?


PS: SCOTUS said quite a while ago that you cannot kill someone simply for escaping.

Start with https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/





PS: "moderate"? LOL. Why does anyone think that works.

A person the police have been given reason to believe is an armed threat to public safety can and should be shot while attempting to escape custody. I suspect you’d be singing a different tune if the suspect had turned out to be armed and instead of being neutralized was allowed to escape around a corner and massacre every man, women, and child he laid eyes upon. Were you critical of Officer Scot Peterson?

 

[trblmkr]

Hard to see how this shooting was in any way justified.

There is still a woeful lack of education regarding dealing with kids with autism or autistic features. I responded to a crisis call a few years back to one of our ERs and when i arrived the room where the crisis was ongoing was filled with screaming and shouting. There were doctors, nurses, security, and cops all in the room. I had to physically remove all of them one by one until it was just the ER doc assigned to the case, who was heaving and red as an apple, one nurse, and a scared 12 year old kid curled up in the fetal position in a corner. I asked the doctor WTF was going on and he said the kid was fighting with and wouldnt stop hissing at him. His mom had been telling them that the kid was autistic. I pushed the doctor and the nurse out of the room, sat down on the floor in the door of the ER, gave the kid every inch of space the room offered, introduced myself, and asked him if I could get him some juice and a peanut butter cookie. He 'hissed' back at me...in what was the most clear 'yesssssssssssssss' you ever heard. Basic ****ing training 101 when dealing with autistic kids...space and sensory awareness. The kid wasnt fighting with the doc. He was trying to be compliant til they grabbed him and tried to force him.

I suspect similar circumstances were involved in this case. Its OK to create boundaries...but you create boundaries with space and choices...especially when you have tow grown ass men handling the situation. Instead, they shot a 13 year old kid. Who knows...maybe theres something more to it. But as it reads now, it doesnt sound good for the cops.

I just gained respect for you I didn't previously have. Sorry. But this is how I think we stop shooting people who are only in distress. I know that sometimes people are a danger to others, and that requires a different approach. But it requires a skill to know the difference. Take the time to figure it out. Put the submit at all cost crap aside. We so need education of our public defenders.

 

[Crosscheck]

On released body cam you do hear the boy tell the police he has a gun during this chase. But am lost why the officer felt the need to shoot him 10 times.

This is a tough one but feel this was entirely mishandled.

 

[Lursa]

First, police do not exist to do the mother’s parenting for her or to act as social workers. They were dispatched for a person threatening others with a weapon. That person was not compliant and attempted to flee so he was shot. That is what police do and what I think they should do. Follow their lawful orders and if you’re wrongfully detained or arrested then you have recourse in civil court. Otherwise you can be shot. If those risks are not commiserate with the situation then stop calling the police for those issues.

Nobody said they were to do any parenting. Dont make stuff up.

And their job is to confirm a crime, a threat, etc. They did not. That is not what cops are supposed to do. They dont execute even adult suspects running away. That is not police procedure. If there's no imminent threat to the public, no reasonable threat to public safety, they dont get to use lethal force. Feel free to show me some police procedures that allow using lethal force on ANY fleeing suspect?

And since they didnt identify a threat...that's what they did. A 13 yr old, with no weapon, is not a threat to the public.

Any cop that expected a 13 yr old, much less a mentally challenged one (and they were informed) would have the presence of mind to stop running in fear is an incompetent moron. Minors are legally held to a different standard to begin with.

You are still completely wrong and appear not to know anything about police procedure and the use of force.

 

[Napoleon]

Nobody said they were to do any parenting. Dont make stuff up.

And their job is to confirm a crime, a threat, etc. They did not. That is not what cops are supposed to do. They dont execute even adult suspects running away. That is not police procedure. If there's no imminent threat to the public, no reasonable threat to public safety, they dont get to use lethal force. Feel free to show me some police procedures that allow using lethal force on ANY fleeing suspect?

And since they didnt identify a threat...that's what they did. A 13 yr old, with no weapon, is not a threat to the public.

Any cop that expected a 13 yr old, much less a mentally challenged one (and they were informed) would have the presence of mind to stop running in fear is an incompetent moron. Minors are legally held to a different standard to begin with.

You are still completely wrong and appear not to know anything about police procedure and the use of force.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. The police were dispatched for a person threatening others with a weapon. That person told police he was armed and attempted to flee. He was a legitimately perceived threat to public safety that had to be stopped so he was shot. I have zero issues with that and I don’t care if he was a mental defect. The mother should have gone home and dealt with her son herself instead of calling the police to do her job for her. None of this would have happened if she were a decent parent instead of abusing the police force to use as her own personal social working service.