Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[code1211]

That is why it can be so difficult to take right-wingers seriously.

Equal protection of the law is actually expressed as a right of due process of law.

Perhaps you could connect these random statements to the topic in some way.

 

[code1211]

Means nothing. We have a federal public health service and;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;-And

You are quoting and posting words that have no connection to the topic.

The federal health service is not what you think it is and does not do what you think it does.

 

[code1211]

The reality is that OSHA will do it’s job in keeping workplaces safe. And the federal government has already mandated vaccination where it has jurisdiction. The sum total of these mandates will affect about 80% of the workers in this country. Other workers will be required to get vaccinated by state, local, and individual business mandates.
Most people will be affected by the upcoming changes. That’s reality.
Deal with it.

Reality and legality once again part company.

 

[Ethel2]

Reality and legality once again part company.

Show me where any court has ruled that OSHA may not issue guidelines for workplace safety regarding requiring Covid vaccination. Your opinion doesn’t matter; neither does mine. But the reality is that OSHA has been charged by your President to come up with certain guidelines that will mandate vaccination in businesses with over 100 employees.
I understand that you don’t like it but this mandate won’t require your approval.

 

[code1211]

Sure
My call is that mitigation worked to reduce the deaths in every country in the world.
You are not smarter than every country in the world.
Period.

The projections of the virus's deadliness before any of this started said that there would be a little over 2 million dead IF NOTHING WAS DONE.

IF ANYTHING AT ALL WAS DONE, THE DEATH TOLL WOULD BE LESS THAN HALF.

ANYTHING, in this case would include washing hands more often and a greater degree of surface sanitation employed by housekeepers.

Much in the way that New York City started sanitizing its subways using light to kill the virus after Trump discussed it with an expert on camera, ANYTHING would cut the impact drastically.

The over reaction by the politically motivated petty tyrants running the petty fiefdoms were over reactions and hurtful in concert with the the virus as riots, murders, domestic abuse, overdoses and suicides all sky rocketed.

Damages were no limited strictly to human beings. Damages to societies were also in evidence.

The "If we do nothing" prediction is examined below.

2.2 Million American Deaths from Covid-19?

The strange career of a fanciful projection

reason.com

 

[code1211]

You know what the issue is? People swallowed the propoganda that the covid was a hoax, and the vaccine was a democrat plot. Oh, and that wearing a mask is not just an inconvinence, but at attack on their 'freedom'. So, they get people sick, and they get people to die.

The places that currently are doing the worse when it comes to cases, and death rate are states that have low vaccination, and a high resistance to wearing masks. They tend to be the 'don't tell me what to do ' republican states.

The way to resolve that issue is getting vaccinated, wearing masks and social distancing until the number go drastically down. No religious exemptions. It is on the people who are not getting vaccinated hands, and those hands are bloody with the lives of people who are dying of the disease.

Vaccinations seem to have produced a positive mitigation impact.

Mask mandates and social distancing mandates have been shown to be incredibly ineffective.

The propaganda you cherish that confirms your bias of Covid attacking Republicans is not a scientific statement of anything but bias confirmation.

Anyone who has been watching what is happening can see that the virus does what it does in waves that occur regionally and wane regionally.

Here in Indiana, the Delta wave rose and is now falling again. Claiming some sort of preference shown by the virus for victims with particular political ideologies seems to be astonishingly free of scientific foundation.

Regardless of the variant wave cited, Indiana hospitals always had excess beds, ICU space and ventilators unlike other less conservative states. Seems to counter your bias on its face.

Are you asserting that there is a huge difference between "Red States" and "Blue States" in the number of cases and deaths based on some sort of viral preference for Red Hat wearing pick up truck drivers?

 

[danielpalos]

Mask mandates and social distancing mandates have been shown to be incredibly ineffective.

Only in actual practice. It is why right-wingers are not very credible.

 

[Ethel2]

The projections of the virus's deadliness before any of this started said that there would be a little over 2 million dead IF NOTHING WAS DONE.

IF ANYTHING AT ALL WAS DONE, THE DEATH TOLL WOULD BE LESS THAN HALF.

ANYTHING, in this case would include washing hands more often and a greater degree of surface sanitation employed by housekeepers.

Much in the way that New York City started sanitizing its subways using light to kill the virus after Trump discussed it with an expert on camera, ANYTHING would cut the impact drastically.

The over reaction by the politically motivated petty tyrants running the petty fiefdoms were over reactions and hurtful in concert with the the virus as riots, murders, domestic abuse, overdoses and suicides all sky rocketed.

Damages were no limited strictly to human beings. Damages to societies were also in evidence.

The "If we do nothing" prediction is examined below.

2.2 Million American Deaths from Covid-19?

The strange career of a fanciful projection

reason.com

The mortality rate of Covid 19 is probably about 1.7% (based on a study in S Korea where they keep much better track of actual case and death numbers than we do here). That was early on, so the mortality rate may be a bit lower. Lets use 1.5% as a conservative number. That means that if nothing was done at all almost 5M people would die. I would say that 2M is way too conservative a figure. If you are proposing that nothing be done then you agree that 5M dead Americans is a reasonable number to sacrifice. Most rational people would not believe that is reasonable to tolerate. And that figure accounts only for Covid deaths. There would be large numbers of deaths due to people needing medical care but who were unable to obtain it because ERs and ICUs are filled with Covid patients.
This should never have been the political issue that the far right has turned it into. It should have been ONLY a public health issue.
Had we not ordered lockdowns, issued mask and vaccine mandates we would have had millions of dead Americans. Every country in the world has had lockdowns and as far as I know, mask mandates as well. Again-you are NOT smarter than every country in the world.

 

[Artymoon]

We are still getting 95,000 cases a day-and that’s way too high.
I don’t care how we increase the vaccination rates as long as it’s legal and that we get to 90% or better.

Gotcha. When will it not be too high? It seems every number hit results in a new benchmark set. And if by some miracle vaccine rate hits 90%, then a new cry will come out for 100% compliance. I very much care how increase in rates are obtained.

 

[Ethel2]

Gotcha. When will it not be too high? It seems every number hit results in a new benchmark set. And if by some miracle vaccine rate hits 90%, then a new cry will come out for 100% compliance. I very much care how increase in rates are obtained.

No one really knows the correct percentage of vaccinated people required to produce a level of herd immunity. We know that the more contagious the virus the higher the number will be. For measles, the most contagious virus there is so far its about 95%. My guess is that for Covid it will likely be around 90%, maybe a little higher. That includes not only vaccinated people but people who have been infected and have achieved a level of immunity that way.
I think its safe to say that everyone wants this done with. Aside from allowing people to get infected and costing millions of lives vaccines are the best way right now to get that number to where it needs to be, whatever that number is. The covidiots are holding us back from getting there. Asking nicely and even bribing them has not worked. Its time to get out the stick and convince them to get vaccinated by making it a condition of employment and refusing entry for them into nearly every single business out there, including IMO supermarkets and schools. The mandates are working. The percentage of vaccinated people in businesses that have required vaccination has gone up considerably. Some will still leave their jobs, but not many. Only 1% if Kaiser's workforce was suspended due to lack of compliance with the vaccine mandate there, for example.
If you do not agree with these mandates then how will you ensure that the rate of vaccination is increased to the level we need it to be at? Don't cite "asking nicely". That has been shown not to work.

 

[Artymoon]

No one really knows the correct percentage of vaccinated people required to produce a level of herd immunity. We know that the more contagious the virus the higher the number will be. For measles, the most contagious virus there is so far its about 95%. My guess is that for Covid it will likely be around 90%, maybe a little higher. That includes not only vaccinated people but people who have been infected and have achieved a level of immunity that way.
I think its safe to say that everyone wants this done with. Aside from allowing people to get infected and costing millions of lives vaccines are the best way right now to get that number to where it needs to be, whatever that number is. The covidiots are holding us back from getting there. Asking nicely and even bribing them has not worked. Its time to get out the stick and convince them to get vaccinated by making it a condition of employment and refusing entry for them into nearly every single business out there, including IMO supermarkets and schools. The mandates are working. The percentage of vaccinated people in businesses that have required vaccination has gone up considerably. Some will still leave their jobs, but not many. Only 1% if Kaiser's workforce was suspended due to lack of compliance with the vaccine mandate there, for example.
If you do not agree with these mandates then how will you ensure that the rate of vaccination is increased to the level we need it to be at? Don't cite "asking nicely". That has been shown not to work.

I'm not against the vaccine. I'm against using force to make someone take it. I believe we have already achieved a high % with shots, post immunity and natural immunity.

This has likely already passed from pandemic to endemic. Are you in favor of continuing mandates going forward to receive whatever boosters are developed? Would you like to see employees continually face risk of termination or employers face steep fines if they don't see eye to eye with the gov't? Today it's Covid, tomorrow it could be anything.

 

[Ethel2]

I'm not against the vaccine. I'm against using force to make someone take it. I believe we have already achieved a high % with shots, post immunity and natural immunity.

This has likely already passed from pandemic to endemic. Are you in favor of continuing mandates going forward to receive whatever boosters are developed? Would you like to see employees continually face risk of termination or employers face steep fines if they don't see eye to eye with the gov't? Today it's Covid, tomorrow it could be anything.

I have no idea how many people have achieved immunity via the "natural route". Do you have a precise number? If not then we have to depend on vaccination rates which are easily documented. We tried asking nicely; we tried bribery. Didn't work. So the next step is to mandate vaccination as a condition of employment at most businesses, and that will happen via OSHA, probably next month. Remember: the covidiots will have a choice: get vaccinated or find a job where vaccination is not required-and be prepared to have your privileges curtailed.
The argument that government shouldn't get involved with mandates is bogus. Every day the government is telling you what to do: you pay taxes; you carry auto insurance; you may not smoke in most public places; you must not drive drunk etc etc etc. The government has every right-in fact the OBLIGATION-to do what it can reasonably do to ensure a safe workplace. You cannot tell me that a workplace is not safer if all employees are fully vaccinated. OSHA will soon be doing its legally mandated job of increasing workplace safety. I think its a wonderful strategy.

 

[Artymoon]

I have no idea how many people have achieved immunity via the "natural route". Do you have a precise number? If not then we have to depend on vaccination rates which are easily documented. We tried asking nicely; we tried bribery. Didn't work. So the next step is to mandate vaccination as a condition of employment at most businesses, and that will happen via OSHA, probably next month. Remember: the covidiots will have a choice: get vaccinated or find a job where vaccination is not required-and be prepared to have your privileges curtailed.
The argument that government shouldn't get involved with mandates is bogus. Every day the government is telling you what to do: you pay taxes; you carry auto insurance; you may not smoke in most public places; you must not drive drunk etc etc etc. The government has every right-in fact the OBLIGATION-to do what it can reasonably do to ensure a safe workplace. You cannot tell me that a workplace is not safer if all employees are fully vaccinated. OSHA will soon be doing its legally mandated job of increasing workplace safety. I think its a wonderful strategy.

Reasonably is the operative word. What's next, you won't be reissued a driver's license unless you have a vaccination? Can't buy food at a grocery store if the gov't deems it necessary? Some people are happy with the gov't controlling everything so long as their social media keeps flowing. Your posts seem more than willing to limit people their ability to earn and support themselves and family because they see it differently. That is a road far more dangerous than this viurs IMO.

 

[Ethel2]

Reasonably is the operative word. What's next, you won't be reissued a driver's license unless you have a vaccination? Can't buy food at a grocery store if the gov't deems it necessary? Some people are happy with the gov't controlling everything so long as their social media keeps flowing. Your posts seem more than willing to limit people their ability to earn and support themselves and family because they see it differently. That is a road far more dangerous than this viurs IMO.

I have no problem with "seeing things differently"-until seeing things differently endangers other people. What if a bunch of people decided that they "see things differently" when it comes to drunk driving? Or what if smokers decided that smoking around other people is simply a matter of "seeing things differently". Should normal people tolerate them?
I think that requiring vaccination in order to renew your drivers license is an excellent idea. I will have to suggest it to my congressman.
The government already has rules for your behavior. A rule designed to protect the lives of others is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Artymoon]

I have no problem with "seeing things differently"-until seeing things differently endangers other people. What if a bunch of people decided that they "see things differently" when it comes to drunk driving? Or what if smokers decided that smoking around other people is simply a matter of "seeing things differently". Should normal people tolerate them?
I think that requiring vaccination in order to renew your drivers license is an excellent idea. I will have to suggest it to my congressman.
The government already has rules for your behavior. A rule designed to protect the lives of others is perfectly reasonable.

The gov't providing a lifetime safety net can be a powerful aphrodisiac to some. Have a good one and good luck with your congressman.

 

[Ethel2]

The gov't providing a lifetime safety net can be a powerful aphrodisiac to some. Have a good one and good luck with your congressman.

Gosh
I thought we were discussing vaccine mandates.
Did you want to change the subject to “lifetime safety nets”?

 

[RAMOSS]

The projections of the virus's deadliness before any of this started said that there would be a little over 2 million dead IF NOTHING WAS DONE.

IF ANYTHING AT ALL WAS DONE, THE DEATH TOLL WOULD BE LESS THAN HALF.

ANYTHING, in this case would include washing hands more often and a greater degree of surface sanitation employed by housekeepers.

Much in the way that New York City started sanitizing its subways using light to kill the virus after Trump discussed it with an expert on camera, ANYTHING would cut the impact drastically.

The over reaction by the politically motivated petty tyrants running the petty fiefdoms were over reactions and hurtful in concert with the the virus as riots, murders, domestic abuse, overdoses and suicides all sky rocketed.

Damages were no limited strictly to human beings. Damages to societies were also in evidence.

The "If we do nothing" prediction is examined below.

2.2 Million American Deaths from Covid-19?

The strange career of a fanciful projection

reason.com

Of course, that is what the model predicted if no counter measures were put into place. HOWEVER, counter measures were put into place, such as mask mandates, enforced social distancing, and remote learingng schools. It doesn't seem you understand how the modeling works.

 

[code1211]

Show me where any court has ruled that OSHA may not issue guidelines for workplace safety regarding requiring Covid vaccination. Your opinion doesn’t matter; neither does mine. But the reality is that OSHA has been charged by your President to come up with certain guidelines that will mandate vaccination in businesses with over 100 employees.
I understand that you don’t like it but this mandate won’t require your approval.

This is a states rights issue.

THE TENTH AMENDMENT:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[6]"

You are arguing in favor of having your rights abridged or removed entirely.

 

[code1211]

Only in actual practice. It is why right-wingers are not very credible.

Do you understand that these two statement contradict one another in this context?

 

[eohrnberger]

Yes, OSHA is doing as directed. This is the administration using OSHA to extort private companies to do its bidding under the guise of public health. IMO, this is is not likely to go through, especially if numbers continue to fall. This was more a scare tactic to get companies to enact their own mandates to avoid potential headaches. Biden wants to be able to tout as high a vaccination rate as possible for political capital but strong arming the populace by back-dooring it through OSHA will likely negate that.

Last I heard there has been no OSHA regulations issued.
Tyrannical 'scare tactic', yes, sure does look like that's what it is. Interesting to note the same who falsely claim others are being dictators or wanting a dictator are the same who cheer this dictatorial move.

All the 'woke' corporations are issuing mandates on their own, such as SouthWest. Corporations, hospitals, first responders, all are going to be facing difficult situations when they lose an estimated 1/3 of their work forces.

Now we can all mindlessly and uncritically cheer how 'brilliantly' the Biden administration has handled COVID.

 

[danielpalos]

Do you understand that these two statement contradict one another in this context?

Glad you recognize right-wing modus operandi.

 

[code1211]

The mortality rate of Covid 19 is probably about 1.7% (based on a study in S Korea where they keep much better track of actual case and death numbers than we do here). That was early on, so the mortality rate may be a bit lower. Lets use 1.5% as a conservative number. That means that if nothing was done at all almost 5M people would die. I would say that 2M is way too conservative a figure. If you are proposing that nothing be done then you agree that 5M dead Americans is a reasonable number to sacrifice. Most rational people would not believe that is reasonable to tolerate. And that figure accounts only for Covid deaths. There would be large numbers of deaths due to people needing medical care but who were unable to obtain it because ERs and ICUs are filled with Covid patients.
This should never have been the political issue that the far right has turned it into. It should have been ONLY a public health issue.
Had we not ordered lockdowns, issued mask and vaccine mandates we would have had millions of dead Americans. Every country in the world has had lockdowns and as far as I know, mask mandates as well. Again-you are NOT smarter than every country in the world.

In South Korea, according to Worldometer, there were 2,594 deaths to date. This rose from 334,163 cases to date.

That breaks out to a percent of 0.7% S. Korean Dead out of all cases.

If we base that on the population of South Korea, 51+ million folks, that percent drops to 0.005%.

US death rate based on cases over infections is 1.6%. Based on deaths over population is closer to 0.2%. Cases: 45+ million. Deaths: 734+ Thousand. Population: 330+ Million.

Your figures seem to be based on something that is not right. Source? Worldometer is a source for good population and Covid Statistics.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 120,042,087 Cases and 2,659,118 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

You quote the utter ineffectiveness of the responses employed worldwide that failed to mitigate the ravages of the virus and are not drawing the logical conclusion: THE mitigation measures DID NOT WORK!

The Delta variant rose in waves measured across the world and across this country. Nothing changed in the covid responses anywhere before the waves rose and nothing changed to make them fall.

However, the waves of the Delta statistics both rose and fell.

The daily new cases and the daily deaths obviously rise and fall independently of the various shut downs, mandates and responses as the Covid Delta Variant wave(s) were less deadly than the Covid 19 Wave(s).

Based on the reduced impact of the virus before and after the vaccines, the vaccines seem to have an impact. The masks and the shutdowns seem to have had no impact whatever.

Can you point to anything done people or by the US Government on July 4 that initiated the rise of Delta in the US or on September 16 that initiated the decline of Delta in the US?

If not, then your argument fails.

 

[Ethel2]

This is a states rights issue.

THE TENTH AMENDMENT:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[6]"

You are arguing in favor of having your rights abridged or removed entirely.

According to your argument the creation of OSHA is illegal. Unfortunately for you it was legally created and is by law charged with overseeing workplace safety on a NATIONAL level. It has already set forth guidelines that greatly improve workplace safety and will soon do so again by issuing guidelines that require businesses with over 100 employees to require vaccination or weekly testing. Employees who don’t like it can find other work. The OSHA directive will be legal until the courts (not you) decide it’s not legal. My guess is that the directive will stand.
I am not concerned about removing your perceived right to make others sick. Not at all.
For reference here is what OSHA is all about. Unvaccinated employees present a clear and present danger in the workplace:

“You have the right to a safe workplace. The Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (OSH Act) was passed to prevent workers from being killed or otherwise harmed at work. The law requires employers to provide their employees with working conditions that are free of known dangers.”

 

[danielpalos]

This is a states rights issue.

THE TENTH AMENDMENT:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[6]"

You are arguing in favor of having your rights abridged or removed entirely.

The general Government is delegated the power to fix standards for the Union.

 

[Ethel2]

In South Korea, according to Worldometer, there were 2,594 deaths to date. This rose from 334,163 cases to date.

That breaks out to a percent of 0.7% S. Korean Dead out of all cases.

If we base that on the population of South Korea, 51+ million folks, that percent drops to 0.005%.

US death rate based on cases over infections is 1.6%. Based on deaths over population is closer to 0.2%. Cases: 45+ million. Deaths: 734+ Thousand. Population: 330+ Million.

Your figures seem to be based on something that is not right. Source? Worldometer is a source for good population and Covid Statistics.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 120,042,087 Cases and 2,659,118 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

You quote the utter ineffectiveness of the responses employed worldwide that failed to mitigate the ravages of the virus and are not drawing the logical conclusion: THE mitigation measures DID NOT WORK!

The Delta variant rose in waves measured across the world and across this country. Nothing changed in the covid responses anywhere before the waves rose and nothing changed to make them fall.

However, the waves of the Delta statistics both rose and fell.

The daily new cases and the daily deaths obviously rise and fall independently of the various shut downs, mandates and responses as the Covid Delta Variant wave(s) were less deadly than the Covid 19 Wave(s).

Based on the reduced impact of the virus before and after the vaccines, the vaccines seem to have an impact. The masks and the shutdowns seem to have had no impact whatever.

Can you point to anything done people or by the US Government on July 4 that initiated the rise of Delta in the US or on September 16 that initiated the decline of Delta in the US?

If not, then your argument fails.

For the last time: if you have no control group you can’t reasonably conclude that mitigation measures didn’t work. There isn’t a country in the world that didn’t employ some sort of mitigation. Therefore you have no idea how much worse it would have been if there was no mitigation at all, nor can you reasonably conclude that lockdowns didn’t reduce deaths-which is a logical conclusion since they reduced person to person interactions. The less people see of each other the less the virus can spread. Pretty basic epidemiology.
And again-you are not smarter than every country in the world.
Why do you think every single nation employed mitigation measures to control viral transmission? Do you think they are all stupid and in need of an epidemiology lesson?