Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom

[bongsaway]

Where'd you get that silly idea (and what does Trump have to do with anything)?



Good for you.

Trump claimed the credit for the vaccines, that's what and most of the trump faithful on here repeated it constantly.

 

[Noodlegawd]

Trump claimed the credit for the vaccines, that's what and most of the trump faithful on here repeated it constantly.

Good for them. Are you one of them?

 

[bongsaway]

Good for them. Are you one of them?

Lol..

 

[Moderate Right]

Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom | Maria Alvarez

The pandemic is once again causing governments to pit incompatible ideas of freedom against each other, says professor of philosophy Maria Alvarez

www.theguardian.com

The people who have no problem with over 100,000 dead British and 500,000 dead Americans are the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures. Such as businesses' rights to not admit narcissistic anti-vaxxers.

Here's the thing about liberty: It only works in moderation. Unlimited liberty means I can literally do whatever I want to you, and whoever "wins" is decided by brute force. Barbarism. Unlimited liberty is, in practice, no liberty at all. The best liberty is freedom within limits.

There's another aspect to this: Healthcare IS freedom. If you have that vaccine, you're going to get the freedom to more safely do things you haven't gotten to do in over a year. If you have affordable healthcare, you have the freedom to live your life not being one health event away from bankruptcy.

So we see that the actual opponents of freedom are the ones who oppose anti-coronavirus measures, not the sensible people who support them.

Yes, by all means, let's have a vaccine passport in order to enter establishments. A vaccine passport which discriminates against blacks, illegals, and other minorities, who will be barred from establishments at a disproportionate rate than whites. Good job lefties. Once again your "well intentioned" policies either don't work or actually make things worse than you intended.

 

[Phys251]

Yes, by all means, let's have a vaccine passport in order to enter establishments. A vaccine passport which discriminates against blacks

M.R. pretends all of a sudden that Black Lives Matter in order to show his disdain for life-saving, common-sense regulations.

 

[Moderate Right]

M.R. pretends all of a sudden that Black Lives Matter in order to show his disdain for life-saving, common-sense regulations.

LOL. Oh, so now you are for discriminating against blacks, illegals, and other minorities, who will be disproportionately effected by having to have a vaccine passport to enter places? You're OK with that?

 

[Phys251]

LOL. Oh, so now you are for discriminating against blacks

Says the person who has no problem with 500,000 dead Americans.

Keep embarrassing yourself, "Moderate" Right. You're demonstrating exactly how your side operates.

 

[Callen]

Yes, by all means, let's have a vaccine passport in order to enter establishments.

Seems to me that two issues keep being conflated. The right of businesses to demand proof of vaccination, which I think will be quite rare, and the Government issuing proof of vaccination upon request. For my part, I am pleased that the Province of Ontario issues proof of vaccination at the time of vaccination. No idea when I'll need it but I'm glad I have it for when that happens because it will.

 

[Moderate Right]

Says the person who has no problem with 500,000 dead Americans.

Keep embarrassing yourself, "Moderate" Right. You're demonstrating exactly how your side operates.

So, you are for discriminating due to health concerns. Hey, I've got my card. I've been fully vaccinated for a while. But I'm not for discrimination, as you are.

 

[Phys251]

So, you are for discriminating due to health concerns.

You've already proven that you have no problem with half a million dead Americans. You don't need to keep reminding us that mass deaths are OK to you.

 

[Moderate Right]

You've already proven that you have no problem with half a million dead Americans. You don't need to keep reminding us that mass deaths are OK to you.

I don't know what you are talking about. We had a worldwide pandemic that has killed millions around the world. It is what it is. Now, under Biden, cases are surging again. Again, it is what it is. My discussion is about you and your fellow lefties wanting to discriminate against blacks, illegals, and other minorities, who would be negatively effected to a greater degree than whites with a vaccine passport system. I personally know several blacks who absolutely refuse to get vaccinated because of a fear the government is using them as guinea pigs for a vaccine that was rushed through. It is my personal belief that these people should be allowed to buy groceries, etc. I'm for the little guy and even though I am against illegal immigration the people that are here deserve to eat, don't they? Are you saying that masks don't work and that people without passports shouldn't be allowed to go to the grocery store, even if they are wearing masks? Really? What happened to masks work?

 

[snakestretcher]

Um, no. The estimated 8 months is based solely on how long the study went on for. We've barely reached a year since it started strongly hitting in the US, and the study IIRC was from January.

There is NO reason to believe it won't continue beyond those 8 months. Earlier studies said '6 months' because... wait for it.... they only had 6 months of data. Were you dropped on the head as a child?

Quit the childish insults mate. So it's an estimate, and as yet no vaccine has had eight months of real world experience to have definitive data on immunity.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Quit the childish insults mate. So it's an estimate, and as yet no vaccine has had eight months of real world experience to have definitive data on immunity.

So then what precisely is your issue?

 

[COTO]

As long as I can fly some airline, buy my groceries at some nearby store, buy my pet supplies at some pet supply store in the city, etc. without showing my papers--without any pressure from the government on such stores for accommodating me--I can tolerate vaccine passports.

I consider them a hideous violation of personal liberty, and a proverbial door to social Hell, but I believe businesses ought to be able to turn unwanted customers away for any reason, including vaccination status.

 

[Gondwanaland]

As long as I can fly some airline, buy my groceries at some nearby store, buy my pet supplies at some pet supply store in the city, etc. without showing my papers--without any pressure from the government on such stores for accommodating me--I can tolerate vaccine passports.

I consider them a hideous violation of personal liberty, and a proverbial door to social Hell, but I believe businesses ought to be able to turn unwanted customers away for any reason, including vaccination status.

What's amazing to me is the same people gleefully pushing vaccine passports are the same ones screaming about voter ID veing racist and evil.

 

[COTO]

What's amazing to me is the same people gleefully pushing vaccine passports are the same ones screaming about voter ID veing racist and evil.

Actually, I was reading in "Wired" magazine that the argument "vaccine passports are racist/sexist/etc." may be the objection that kills the idea off in America.

In other words, it appears that the left's insistence that minority races are too incompetent to obtain voter ID, vaccine passports, etc. may win out over their insistence that everybody should be pumped full of vaccine to be able to function in society.

 

[Ethel2]

As long as I can fly some airline, buy my groceries at some nearby store, buy my pet supplies at some pet supply store in the city, etc. without showing my papers--without any pressure from the government on such stores for accommodating me--I can tolerate vaccine passports.

I consider them a hideous violation of personal liberty, and a proverbial door to social Hell, but I believe businesses ought to be able to turn unwanted customers away for any reason, including vaccination status.

Seems you are from Canada. Here in the US the government has authority to make exert certain controls over airlines. They have already mandated masks for everyone flying. Eventually they will also mandate vaccination or a negative Covid test for everyone who flies.
Public health is more important than your perceived liberty-which is an illusion anyway.

I use to say vaccine passports are coming.

They are already here.

 

[jellybean]

Are Covid passports a threat to liberty? It depends on how you define freedom | Maria Alvarez

The pandemic is once again causing governments to pit incompatible ideas of freedom against each other, says professor of philosophy Maria Alvarez

www.theguardian.com

The people who have no problem with over 100,000 dead British and 500,000 dead Americans are the same ones who cry and moan over common-sense, life-saving measures. Such as businesses' rights to not admit narcissistic anti-vaxxers.

Here's the thing about liberty: It only works in moderation. Unlimited liberty means I can literally do whatever I want to you, and whoever "wins" is decided by brute force. Barbarism. Unlimited liberty is, in practice, no liberty at all. The best liberty is freedom within limits.

There's another aspect to this: Healthcare IS freedom. If you have that vaccine, you're going to get the freedom to more safely do things you haven't gotten to do in over a year. If you have affordable healthcare, you have the freedom to live your life not being one health event away from bankruptcy.

So we see that the actual opponents of freedom are the ones who oppose anti-coronavirus measures, not the sensible people who support them.

I hardly think a sensible person would voluntarily submit themselves to experimental gene therapy when they have a 99% of surviving the disease they are ‘vaccinating’ against. Why are they calling it a vaccine when it isn’t? How do you know if it’s effective when you’re the guinea pig? Doesn’t sound sensible to me when these same goofs are having their innocent children forced into the same experiment. Messing with your body’s natural immunity needs long term studies and this goes beyond common decency to impose this experiment by waging fear among the gullible masses.
There are doctors who know what’s going on but they have been silenced or they would lose their licenses, scholarships and jobs.
You may be choose to be gullible and cause harm to your body but you don’t have a right to impose your ignorance on others.
There are ppl getting sick snd dying from the vaccines throughout the world but this info has been suppressed unless you know ppl in other countries who will give first hand accounts. Even those who have died 2-7days after the jab in this country are either an unlucky rare event or they died from some other cause, yea right.
3 profs are in the hospital as we speak after getting the JJ but hey this is your civic duty, right?
No doubt the folks who have no reactions or are feeling even better are most likely part of the placebo group. After all, if too many end up injured, dead or in the hospital the sheep would run away. When studies for effective treatments are suppressed, you can understand why. So long as there isn’t a treatment for COVID , these companies can continue to pump their poisons into humanity. Emergency use can only go in affect when there is no treatment. So......just follow the money and the politicians with a vested interest in these ‘vaccines’. And yet, those sounding the alarm are called narcissists because they don’t want their families to inject an experimental toxin that is killing and injuring ppl? Insulting those who are smart enough to cry foul against being a test subject only exploits your inability to think critically. No one should be forced into submitting themselves in an experimental trial. You’re a fool to do so.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Go get your shot. If you do, then you shouldn't be worried about me and if I've done the same. Unless the shot doesn't actually work....

A cancer patient that is a mother of 3 in her 30s is immune compromised, thus she cannot be currently vaccinated. She is flying to Houston for treatment at MD Anderson. She depends upon everyone on the flight that can be vaccinated to be vaccinated. There are people like that all over this country that depend upon herd immunity. Welcome to society and public health.

 

[jellybean]

I totally get that attitude (waiting for full approval for mandating vaccines). I don’t blame them at all. Approval is on the horizon.

Even more of a reason citizens should cry foul. There needs to be long term studies when involving gene therapy on human beings. This should be your typical 25 year endeavor in order to understand the long term effects on something that has never been done before. What kind of fool could trust an FDA that would approve without adequate testing? How can we trust the FDA should they approve something that will forever change how our genes are expressed with no way of reversing it should the effects prove fatal say in year 5 or year 10? Well at least they could claim it wasn’t a Nuremberg violation because it would receive a bogus approval. On top of the fact there is no liability for damages is further proof, no one should be denied accessibility to travel, work, school etc. should they pass on the jab. I am astonished at the mass numbers of gullibles who can’t think on their own.

 

[Ethel2]

Even more of a reason citizens should cry foul. There needs to be long term studies when involving gene therapy on human beings. This should be your typical 25 year endeavor in order to understand the long term effects on something that has never been done before. What kind of fool could trust an FDA that would approve without adequate testing? How can we trust the FDA should they approve something that will forever change how our genes are expressed with no way of reversing it should the effects prove fatal say in year 5 or year 10? Well at least they could claim it wasn’t a Nuremberg violation because it would receive a bogus approval. On top of the fact there is no liability for damages is further proof, no one should be denied accessibility to travel, work, school etc. should they pass on the jab. I am astonished at the mass numbers of gullibles who can’t think on their own.

I agree
Most conservatives do have a hard time thinking on their own because they live in a separate reality.
Its extremely unlikely that the mRNA vaccines have side serious effects that we don’t already know about. There are ZERO vaccines currently in use that have side effects delayed by months or years.
These won’t be the first.
We don’t have years to wait. Covid is killing thousands of people worldwide every day.
Do the right thing: get your shot.

 

[jellybean]

Lockdowns work if people observe them. Look at the extraordinary success of South East Asian nations for example.

What’s the secret to Southeast Asia’s Covid success stories?

There is no secret.

www.lowyinstitute.org

The lessons from East Asia's coronavirus successes

Japan and its neighbors have largely fared better than the West during the COVID-19 pandemic, and now have a duty to pass on their knowledge.

www.japantimes.co.jp

What’s Behind Mainland Southeast Asia’s Surprising Success Against COVID-19

With the exception of Thailand, the five countries of mainland Southeast Asia are some of the poorest in the Asia-Pacific region. According to the World Bank, Cambodia has a per capita GDP of around $1,600, while Myanmar’s is roughly $1,400. Laos and Vietnam fare only marginally better, each at...

www.worldpoliticsreview.com

Idiots whining about 'freedom' and rights being 'violated', refusing to wear masks or avoiding gatherings, is why the US has fared so poorly; that and the lack of a national Covid strategy. Leaving it up to individual states to deal with the pandemic was asking for trouble-and you got it.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? The states locked down the most have had the biggest problems-look at Cali and NY. IF you could look beyond the trough you have been fed misleading info from you may realize you have been manipulated and deceived.
1.Masks are not meant to be worn 24/7. Doctors only wear them for invasive procedures that would incur splatter. They have never worn them all day long.
2. in spite of the lies fed through the media, masks actually can lower oxygen saturation levels. Anyone with a pulse oximeter can see that if they are honest with themselves.
3. fibers from masks can be aspirated snd cause chronic coughs. This is especially prevalent when reusing masks which most ppl do. They are only to be used one time. I suspect we are going to find injury from long term mask use.
4. lowered oxygen and nitric oxide lowers immunity. That’s a fact and anyone who disputes this is a liar. When you put your body in stress mode by lowering oxygen, your immunity is compromised. Stress releases cortisol which is a cause of numerous health problems.
5. avoiding viruses is not natural. Going about our business as in the past builds our immunity. Covid is a new flu created in China that was supposedly released by accident. We have NEVER been able to vaccinate for viruses. Like the flu shot, it’s only a guess each year. To claim this ‘vaccine’ is going to stop the spread is a flat out lie. It hasn’t been properly tested which would need decades of trials and research. Altering the human genome is not to be taken lightly.

 

[jellybean]

I agree
Most conservatives do have a hard time thinking on their own because they live in a separate reality.
Its extremely unlikely that the mRNA vaccines have side serious effects that we don’t already know about. There are ZERO vaccines currently in use that have side effects delayed by months or years.
These won’t be the first.
We don’t have years to wait. Covid is killing thousands of people worldwide every day.
Do the right thing: get your shot.

It’s a shame and foolish to label ppl in this discussion when it has nothing to do with politics. The mob mentality puppeteers want you to believe that. It is obvious you don’t have a science background which makes it a cinch to bamboozle you with some slick brochures, star studded endorsements and a compliant media pushing the agenda. This is gene therapy and proponents can candy coat this all day long but that is what it is. This changes the human genome and THAT needs decades of study because genetic manipulation can play out in weeks, months or years. There are strong concerns it can lead to autoimmune diseases like aids but it will take time depending on the body chemistry of ea person. While there are some receiving a placebo , I have no doubt. I know 3 profs in the hospital after J J jab. Another in the same state died. Others have bells palsey which in many causes never completely goes away. I know of more who are suffering or died from the jab than who EVER had COVID. MYSELF INCLUDED. it was a bad flu. I had co morbidities which put me in the hospital for 3 days. It was not over crowded when the media said it was. A total farce. So before you start slinging shade, you need a better understanding of biology and science. These media science frauds are bought and paid for. You have to decide to think for yourself or follow the rest off the cliff because that’s going to happen. Get ready, the ‘new’ strain is coming because that’s what viruses do but some of the vaccinated are going to have a severe response which will be blamed on a more virulent strain when it is really caused by the the way your genes are being expressed in every cell. Think of Disney’s Fantasia and Mickys bucket that continued to over flow and he couldn’t stop it.

 

[Ethel2]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? The states locked down the most have had the biggest problems-look at Cali and NY. IF you could look beyond the trough you have been fed misleading info from you may realize you have been manipulated and deceived.
1.Masks are not meant to be worn 24/7. Doctors only wear them for invasive procedures that would incur splatter. They have never worn them all day long.
2. in spite of the lies fed through the media, masks actually can lower oxygen saturation levels. Anyone with a pulse oximeter can see that if they are honest with themselves.
3. fibers from masks can be aspirated snd cause chronic coughs. This is especially prevalent when reusing masks which most ppl do. They are only to be used one time. I suspect we are going to find injury from long term mask use.
4. lowered oxygen and nitric oxide lowers immunity. That’s a fact and anyone who disputes this is a liar. When you put your body in stress mode by lowering oxygen, your immunity is compromised. Stress releases cortisol which is a cause of numerous health problems.
5. avoiding viruses is not natural. Going about our business as in the past builds our immunity. Covid is a new flu created in China that was supposedly released by accident. We have NEVER been able to vaccinate for viruses. Like the flu shot, it’s only a guess each year. To claim this ‘vaccine’ is going to stop the spread is a flat out lie. It hasn’t been properly tested which would need decades of trials and research. Altering the human genome is not to be taken lightly.

This post is so full of BS that I am not going to waste my time debunking every false statement you made. Just a few-for fun.

The mRNA vaccines don’t interact with your DNA

Wearing a mask doesn’t lower your pO2.

And remember the smallpox virus? It’s been eliminated through vaccines.

 

[jellybean]

Trump claimed the credit for the vaccines, that's what and most of the trump faithful on here repeated it constantly.

All the more reasons this isn’t about politics as you have been led to believe. This is about survival because manipulating our genes without adequate testing is criminal especially when given to preg women and their children. It’s like we have moved into an Orwellian society -unable to think for ourselves. There are all kinds of ppl concerned about this massive science experiment on humanity.....these are people from various cultures, religions, political beliefs , etc. You need to open your eyes because division among our great country is part of the plan. You have to look beyond the crooked politicians on both sides because they are the parasites sucking the life out of society.